Sure, but you also approximaately double the pedal motion to move the 2x fluid amount to get the calipers to engage. Do you have that pedal distance avialable? Wil the engae point be way low or do you have a way to adjust this that is satisfactory? The same thing happens when one halves the MC piston diameter; double the line pressure but also double the pedal motion to get the same caliper piston movement. I.e.: no free lunch, so to speak.

This thread started with the idea of avoiding a 'wooden pedal' effect. Where is it heading now?

BTW, if you want to eliminate the booster to get consistent pedal feel, another option to increase the braking force and keep the pedal forces reasonable is to change pad materials and find a pad materials with a higher CoF (coefficient of friction).

Regards,
Mark B.

starion887 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sure, but you also approximaately double the pedal
> motion to move the 2x fluid amount to get the
> calipers to engage.


Weeeeeeeeeeeeellll.......
Not a hard fact. The $64,000 question is the percentage increase IF ANY in the replacement caliper.
If the one thang has a single 2" piston---working on the reaction frame for more or less total of 2 2" pistons that's 3.14 sq in per piston and 6.28 for the caliper.

If a guy listens to ME!!! and doesn't waste tons of time fucking with computers and silly programs, then he'd know going from previous proven examples that for example the greatest car in the history of humankind, the MkII Escort used 4 x 1.5" pistons front or 1.77 sq in per x 4 = 7.08 and we have just 13% more area, and we have a nice firm pedal and with the bigger pad, likely a bit further out we have more simple leverage.
Better brakes, better leverage. And larger pad= longer life.



Do you have that pedal
> distance avialable? Wil the engae point be way low
> or do you have a way to adjust this that is
> satisfactory? The same thing happens when one
> halves the MC piston diameter; double the line
> pressure but also double the pedal motion to get
> the same caliper piston movement. I.e.: no free
> lunch, so to speak.

Agreed, Robert the Service Nazi and I are sitting here and talking about when he instructed hydraulics and how many many guys had such troble understanding the inverse relation tween force and volume.

That's where PRAXIS (fuckin look it up) is so important, it save TONS of time and once you listen and do the right things, THEN you can waste time now UNDERSTANDING why or what it was that worked better.
>
> This thread started with the idea of avoiding a
> 'wooden pedal' effect. Where is it heading now?
>
> BTW, if you want to eliminate the booster to get
> consistent pedal feel, another option to increase
> the braking force and keep the pedal forces
> reasonable is to change pad materials and find a
> pad materials with a higher CoF (coefficient of
> friction).
Yeah, but right sized stuff is really nice. The the compound is like icing on the cake.
>
> Regards,
> Mark B.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Single or double MC's, Vacum assist is for pussies!!!

---

Gone fishing

I'm not sure why you think its wasting time learning why different changes effect the performance of various systems. Why is that?

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

Dazed_Driver Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm not sure why you think its wasting time
> learning why different changes effect the
> performance of various systems. Why is that?
>
> Feisty Peacock?


I know this is directed at John but hey it's Anarchy. It's wasting time because it's like spending years and money inventing something that's been done a million times over by people smarter than you or I. Do what is PROVEN again and again to work at the highest level. There's lots of time later (like during the install) when you can "figure everything out.

Souldn't you be out rallying???

---

Gone fishing

david amor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dazed_Driver Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I'm not sure why you think its wasting time
> > learning why different changes effect the
> > performance of various systems. Why is that?
>
> >
> > Feisty Peacock?
>
>
> I know this is directed at John but hey it's
> Anarchy. It's wasting time because it's like
> spending years and money inventing something
> that's been done a million times over by people
> smarter than you or I. Do what is PROVEN again and
> again to work at the highest level. There's lots
> of time later (like during the install) when you
> can "figure everything out.
>
> Souldn't you be out rallying???

See the difference Timmy?
Dave is an adult. He must pay the mortgage, spend time with wifey and kiddies, work on his fuckin Sub-a-rat, etc etc etc.
He understand the goal is to drive the car down a gravel or snowy road preferrably faster than the next guy.
He clearly understands than everything we are doing, from choice of car to selecting parts to driving techniques have all been done plenty of times in the past and often with guys going far faster on stages than any of us in North America currently active.
It follows that the problem in trying to go faster than the next guy isn't to fool oneself into thinking you are "learning how "differing changes" affect a system", the main problem is finding a) correct specific information on what works for the job at hand and
b) finding at affordable prices the parts the information told us we need and
c) doing the hundreds of hours of seat time to become accustomed to driving the car so that there is developed "muscle memory" cause gawd knows you have no regular memory.

If you had any memory, you would recall me telling you about this very concept in the past.

But to re-cap, learning is fine, but HOW one learns is the difference and is something that many, including you,* usually wastes years and years of time.

But you seem completely unconcerned that years are passing and you're not driving your car in the woods so who am I to say you shouldn't spend days and weeks playing with computer games "Learning" exactly what works in the woods.
Just seems odd when the question is so easily answered.


>
> "As the spirit wanes, the form apears" -Charles
> Bukowski


* your conversational style, completely ordinary for males in this country is part of the problem but that's a discussion that I fear is not something you would benefit from. You are, according to your previous statements, well educated.
I have nothing to teach you.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

John, I guess your "big ass surgery" didn't go as well as you hoped as the stick seems to still be up there.

Thanks for your "help"

I might take you more seriously if you didn't insult me, and anyone else you deem "unworthy" with every response in attempts to sound witty. I also might take your gospel with more enthusiasm if you were able to explain WHY things work occasionally, and not always falling back on, "Well, this is what Ford did."

Have you ever asked a religious person what proof they have of something happening many thousands of years ago, and they respond, "Well, the bible says so."

How much stock do you put into that?

(yes, I realize that's a completely different matter, but its an example that is very similar to trying to understand what is going on, vs just knowing what to do)

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

Dazed_Driver Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Have you ever asked a religious person what proof
> they have of something happening many thousands of
> years ago, and they respond, "Well, the bible says
> so."
>
> How much stock do you put into that?
>
> (yes, I realize that's a completely different
> matter, but its an example that is very similar to
> trying to understand what is going on, vs just
> knowing what to do)
>
>
>
> Feisty Peacock?



That's a terrible analogy and it works completely AGAINTS your argument. I've never had a person say "Well the bible says so".

What they say is "I have faith"

I guesss you don't know many "religious people" as you like to call them.

---

Gone fishing

Dazed_Driver Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm not sure why you think its wasting time
> learning why different changes effect the
> performance of various systems. Why is that?
>
> Feisty Peacock?

I would not spend much time worrying about others' comments on how you learn, Tim. IMO, it's your time to spend and your perogative to spend it as you please. Just for amusement, if you go with the flow of "JVL-think", you will learn to predict that if you say a certain thing, then JVL will chime in with a certain response. I knew for certain that when I posted the note about the approximaate 2x volume, then JVL would respond immediately with a 'not so fast' reply and drive immediately to the point that many/most applications we deal with here are of the same basic size and weight of vehicles, and this drives folks to pretty much the same solutions within a piston size of %/-20%, and so forth. I am not sure if this is a conditioned 'straight-man' action on my part or a kind of a Pavlovian experiment on John......(hmmmm, I bet my strut priority just dropped to the bottom in JVL's shop......)

So back to the brake system discussion!

On the brake fluid volume thing: there ARE considerably more variables on the amount of brake fluid needed (and thus the pedal travel needed) that have to do with caliper flex, caliper bracket movement, rotor/wheel movement, design of the caliper piston seals, etc. So the idea of "2x fluid needed for the 2x reduction in pedal pressure" is a pretty conditional situation, depending a lot on the calipers and setup. Read up on some performance caliper sites/catalogs and they will go on and on about caliper stiffness/rigidity, and such things.

And a note to Eddie: Take special note in the pix posted about the plates on the firewalls used for mounting the dual MC setups shown. Firewalls are much more flexible than folks may imagine, when the force of a brake pedal works against them; putting in cosiderable rigidity in this area is important. The last thing you want is the firewall flexing with the huge number of applications of brake pressure in a typical stage rally; such flexing not only effects your brake usage, but the firewall can crack over time; that is really not good!

Regards,
Mark B.

Dazed_Driver Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> John, I guess your "big ass surgery" didn't go as
> well as you hoped as the stick seems to still be
> up there.
>
> Thanks for your "help"
>
> I might take you more seriously if you didn't
> insult me, and anyone else you deem "unworthy"
> with every response in attempts to sound witty.


Timmy, you consistantly fail to understand, despite your claim of being highly educated that the WAY YOU SPEAK, the OBVIOUSLY CONTEMPTUOUS way for everybody, including those who help you, including your family, including me which you present yourself, does not engender much desire to waste time speaking with the kid gloves you need.


> also might take your gospel with more enthusiasm
> if you were able to explain WHY things work
> occasionally, and not always falling back on,
> "Well, this is what Ford did."

I know it is a waste of time so far---why should i continue wasting time?
How many years, how many hundred hours should I, we, anybody spend TRYING to educate you only to have you a) counter what is said, and/or b) forget what was said or c) never do what the "what was said" obviously leads one to?


>
> Have you ever asked a religious person what proof
> they have of something happening many thousands of
> years ago, and they respond, "Well, the bible says
> so."

Stupid analogy, Stupid.
Hydraulics is not a belief system, kid.
Gearing is not a myth.....

And what you believe is unimportant.
In mechanical things, set ups, which parts, there is a thing called AUTHORITY which is VALIDATED by a COMPETITION RECORD stretch back 40 years.
In simpler terms--- which trust me Timmy, you need simple terms because you fucking think you're the equal or better of anybody, and sorry, you aren't---

YOU can check the results Ford--and everybody else since everybody did in essence the exact same thing---and usually with the EXACT SAME PARTS---in rallies from local to WRC, from 1970 thru current and and any resonably intelligent person should be able to conclude "Shit damn, if I put my _______together using more or less same stuff, or functionally same stuff as ____________ team did, the gawddam thing ought to go pretty good!!!
THEN---it's up to me to drive it good!) (Since the whole point is the DRIVING--remember????
>
> How much stock do you put into that?
>
> (yes, I realize that's a completely different
> matter, but its an example that is very similar to
> trying to understand what is going on, vs just
> knowing what to do)

You, like most young 'uns confuse belief with knowledge.
Confuse the subject and verb in nearly everything.
For you, the subject you speak of is aways "I" as in "I want to understand".
Much more important is just the what of parts at this stage.

You think that your understanding everything as a PRELUDE to doing what is LONG ESTABLISHED as the most effective way to go down a gravel road is flawed.


Again:
The problem is not trying to figure out parts and set up.
The problem is sourcing affordable parts particularly wear items and specialty parts.

You can figure out things BETTER after the fact because THEN you have actual knowledge of the effect the thing had on how the car goes.

But so important is it for you to assert yourself, that you will argue and waste time whining "I wanna unnerstan!!!"

Show some respect and oddly enough, eventually you'll get some respect.
>

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Vanlandingham, give it up. Crawl back you your hole, and go back to producing the parts that pay your rent. You regurgitate the same stuff towards me each time. Try something new, if your going to be persistently irrational towards me for asking a simple question (How come it works?) I guess you can blame my years in the American education system for that. I learned to wonder and think and ask why a lot. It helps understand the things we're taught. Apparently, that's wrong.

Your right, knowing why it works isnt going to make me faster down a gravel road. But some of us like to know these things. Some of us find it interesting, and some of us have the capability to both understand these things, and do other things. Understanding wont make me faster, it wont make the car get done sooner, but at 11:45pm, it wont make the car slower, or get done slower.

And as for your slandering towards my treating my family. You're just making things up. You have been to my house once MAYBE for an hour. Again, I thank you for the help getting my car up here. No one was home, except maybe one of my younger brothers and then my mom came later, while you were here. She doesn't like you, hahaha, btw. She thinks your stories were crude and vastly inappropriate. Me being me, I actually defended you. Funny how this kinda thing works out, huh? If you had any idea who I was towards my family and friends, and generally everyone else, you wouldn't be typing that. But you have no idea.

So, Say what you want, Tell me I'm wrong and a bad boy, im rude and stupid. Tell me I treat my family like crap, and I have no mental capacity. Continue to make fun of me for being "highly educated" when I think I just claimed I was educated. There's a difference. Let me know that I'll never go faster by understanding and that young people can't have opinions or formulate thoughts. Continue to call me Timmy, even though I have said not to... after all, what do you care, in the Kingdom of JVL that is rally anarchy.

I asked a simple question, and you still brought insults to me. And I'm the rude one. I'm the one that treats people like garbage.

Whatever, Vanlandingham, I'm not going to tell you stop, because you'll do what you want with no respect for others anyway. And you know what? Good. I don't care.

Anyway, have at me. I'm sure you'll spend some ungodly amount of time trying to be creative with ways to make me look bad. I've seen you do it to others. I almost feel like I'm letting you down by only spending a few minutes on this. Oh well.

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

You still don't have a clue.

There is nothing wrong with asking.

There is when the tone once the question is answered is challenging, essential sounding like "prove it".

Besides, what you need is answers to what to do or use, and you get answers to that.
You demand the to be taught the "why".

That's your job. A smart person would work back from the known answer and see if what they find elsewhere fits with what has been given to them as the already proven answer.

And I did not insult you; I answered you in the tone I hear.
Not very pleasant is it?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

These type of threads always make me think of this line:

---

Andrew Steere
Lyndeborough, NH
KB1PJY

LOL, I always think of these pictures when this starts up

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/12/2009 06:44PM by Dazed_Driver.

Mark B makes some good points about additional volume needed and fire wall flex.

Robert.

---

Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.