Is there a way to wire up a relay and a simple dummy light (mounted on the dash somewhere) so when something shits the bed, the light goes bright so you know its dead?

I'm thinking for things like the starter, fuel pump, aux lights, etc...which would help take the 'guessing' out of diagnosis when something goes wrong on stage.


For example...Aux lights....wire up the switch with an indicator light in series so the light goes on when the switch is flipped (so you know the relay is getting 12v)....but then AFTER that relay, the 12v line that goes to the lights, wire in a 2nd reverse relay (that is 'open' w/12v, and 'closed' w/o no voltage) that goes back to a 2nd indicator light on the dash. If the aux lights suddenly go out, and that 2nd indicator light is off, then a bulb has gone out. But if that 2nd indicator light goes ON, then the relay isn't giving out 12V and you know its time to replace the relay w/out having to even think about it.

worth it? or too much extra wiring for the effort?

---

Jon Burke - KI6LSW
Blog: http://psgrallywrx.blogspot.com/

If your relays are (clearly labeled and) right in front of the co-driver, then when the lights go out, the co-driver swaps the relay. if the relay swap doesn't work, then it's time to change the bulb...

Way over-complicated.
If the lights go out, keep driving and figure it out later.
Use the well documented and proven method of using two fuel pumps and running one at a time and having them independent so if the pump or relay fails you just flip a switch and only lost a few seconds (fuel pressure gauge can be useful at that point too. )
If the Starter goes out, looks like somebody's pushing...

---

Grant Hughes

http://www.mat.fi/n_index.php?nav=gallery_view&gallery=1978ferrai308gtbrallycar&g=13

if you follow that link and jump to photo 151 you can see a relay location (clearly labeled) that fits the bill.

And if you've never been to the site... Enjoy!

I've used some fancy relays that have the spade fuse built in to it. That fitted with one of those 'glow when blown" fuses makes a nice combo... if it gets deeper than that, then nothing but time will solve the issue.
Fuel pressure could be monitored with a low pressure switch and a light hooked up to it.

ok, dont mean to hijack this thread in typical RA fashion....but i dont get this whole dual fuel pump thing. why would fuel pumps be so much more likely to fail in a rally car versus any other type of racecar? do they break that often that is is worth making them redundant? i mean, all the cool kids have two, so there must be a good reason for it...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/04/2009 10:03PM by DirkaDirkaJack.

Jack,

Have you ever been in a rally car on stage?!? They get the living shit beaten and shaken out of them. Also if the pump fails you stop rallying. If the aux lights quit you keep going except slower.

John,

The only warning lights that you need are low oil pressure and high coolant temp. A nice set up is red and amber marker lights on the dash. You can't miss those! You don't need a warning to notice that the lights quit or the fuel pressure is zero. If you want to get fancy a low fuel level light isn't a bad idea but generally keep things as simple as you can.

Robert.

---

Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

DirkaDirkaJack Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ok, dont mean to hijack this thread in typical RA
> fashion....but i dont get this whole dual fuel
> pump thing. why would fuel pumps be so much more
> likely to fail in a rally car versus any other
> type of racecar? do they break that often that is
> is worth making them redundant? i mean, all the
> cool kids have two, so there must be a good reason
> for it...

Strength to change what you can, serenity to accept what you can't, wisdom to know the difference.

If your fuel pump dies - "Damn, if only I had a second one spliced in ready to go so I could just flip a switch!"

My favorite fuel pump story is from a 24 Hours of Lemons. A team racing a 2.3 Turbo Mustang was having fuel pump problems. It was running hot and the engine was cutting out at the end of the straight. They were able to toggle the fuel pump off in braking zones, and the few seconds of cooling got them another 500rpm on the back straight before the engine started cutting out. Damn convenient, that...

NASCAR have two separate ignition systems wired in, the same way. IIRC it's never really needed, either, but it's something that *can* be prepared for.

---

Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/05/2009 12:15PM by Pete.

Had Tom Buress had two pumps in the car and one spare in the truck----rather than one pump in the car and 2 spares in the truck, he would have beat John Lane for the Overall win at last years' DooWops rather than sputtering to a stop and Duh Neffing.

That's the most heartbreaking pump story I know.

2 in the pink and one in the stink?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

yes, dual fuel pumps FTW.

low fuel pressure light/gauge....good one


I guess my thought is, if the car dies on stage, it might not be 100% obvious its the fuel pump, or whatever, so having indicator lights on as many things as possible help diagnose as quickly as possible.

(ie.....car dies, OK, flip on the 2nd fuel pump! Car still won't start, OK, now what?)

anyway, you guys get my point...obviously there's a way to do it efficiently, and then there's overkill...and then there's, 'if it aint broke, don't fix it'



thx for the ideas.

---

Jon Burke - KI6LSW
Blog: http://psgrallywrx.blogspot.com/

Jon Burke Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> yes, dual fuel pumps FTW.
>
> low fuel pressure light/gauge....good one
>
>
> I guess my thought is, if the car dies on stage,
> it might not be 100% obvious its the fuel pump, or
> whatever, so having indicator lights on as many
> things as possible help diagnose as quickly as
> possible.

You're right.
A normal POS automotive oil pressure sender for 6 bucks in line will open at 0,4-0,5 bar and would work marrvy as a sign you're not getting fuel.
Aftermarket at Longacre they have inexpensive "Early warning" senders that swith at 20-30 PSI and work fine.

The 3 times I've had pumps die it took a while before it was QUIET ENOUGH to hear they weren't working.
An idiot light is smart.

>
> (ie.....car dies, OK, flip on the 2nd fuel pump!
> Car still won't start, OK, now what?)
>
> anyway, you guys get my point...obviously there's
> a way to do it efficiently, and then there's
> overkill...and then there's, 'if it aint broke,
> don't fix it'
>
>
>
> thx for the ideas.
>
> Jon Burke - KI6LSW
> Blog:
> 'Holy Shit!' @ 4:10

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

DirkaDirkaJack Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ok, dont mean to hijack this thread in typical RA
> fashion....but i dont get this whole dual fuel
> pump thing. why would fuel pumps be so much more
> likely to fail in a rally car versus any other
> type of racecar? do they break that often that is
> is worth making them redundant? i mean, all the
> cool kids have two, so there must be a good reason
> for it...
>

Jack, all proper race cars have two fuel pumps. Actually, in the Lexus we had three, one being the reserve pump. There are few things that will so suddenly and definitively end a race or rally as a bad fuel pump. If you have a back up all you have to do is flip a switch and no time lost. Do you think airplanes only have one fuel pump?

Jon Burke Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is there a way to wire up a relay and a simple
> dummy light (mounted on the dash somewhere) so
> when something shits the bed, the light goes
> bright so you know its dead?
>
> I'm thinking for things like the starter, fuel
> pump, aux lights, etc...which would help take the
> 'guessing' out of diagnosis when something goes
> wrong on stage.
>
>
> For example...Aux lights....wire up the switch
> with an indicator light in series so the light
> goes on when the switch is flipped (so you know
> the relay is getting 12v)....but then AFTER that
> relay, the 12v line that goes to the lights, wire
> in a 2nd reverse relay (that is 'open' w/12v, and
> 'closed' w/o no voltage) that goes back to a 2nd
> indicator light on the dash. If the aux lights
> suddenly go out, and that 2nd indicator light is
> off, then a bulb has gone out. But if that 2nd
> indicator light goes ON, then the relay isn't
> giving out 12V and you know its time to replace
> the relay w/out having to even think about it.
>
> worth it? or too much extra wiring for the effort?
>

Of course, you could save yourself a bunch of wiring and just buy a Merkur...

Ok well was thinking if you are going to the trouble of making things redundant why not two ignition systems, two sets of injectors, two cooling systems. But I guess the difference is the added weight and complexity of two fuel pumps (very little) makes it worth doing.

And for the record Rallymech, no I have never been in a rally car, but that's ok because it doesn't look like much fun ...

Actually, with the dual plug 2.3 head from the Ranger and the custom intake manifold I'm making to have dual injectors like the Escort WRC car had, I could have dual ignition and fueling with a second ECU.

---

Grant Hughes