Fuel filler tube

Ted Andkilde Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How sealed is "sealed"?
>
> Could you fab a replacement seatback and parcel
> shelf out of aluminum sheet, pop-riveted together
> with a strip of piano hinge, as a bulkhead (yeah
> sealing around the cage tubes would be a nuisance,
> but not insurmountable)-- or do they require some
> sort of hermetically sealed compartment?
>
> t
>
> Pure mathematics is the enemy of every truly
> creative man -- Sir Alec

Well a piano hinge isn't fluid proof. The rest of the process would be fine.

I doubt that RA is in a position to be engineering fuel cells or fills. As soon as you did get one figured out it won't fit the next car or the next builders vision. Too many variables for a one size fits all fuel cell. It's one thing to look at something and say it appears to be sufficient and meet the letter of the rule ( an FIA rule btw) .It's a whole 'nuther issue to be designing something for people to use and accepting that responsibility.

Hilti makes a wide variety of "firestops" that are regularly used in the construction industry and approved for penetrations in rated (fire) walls.

Here's a listing :

http://www.us.hilti.com/holus/modules/prcat/prca_fuse.jsp?RANGE_ID=r361

I wonder if these sealents, caulkings, etc... would be approved for penetrations inside the cabin such as around tubes, bulkheads, etc. ?

If they're approved in mechanical rooms, boiler rooms, electrical rooms, residentially as well as commercially - logic would suggest thay would have automotive applications too ?

Edit : fix dead link



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/06/2009 03:42PM by Morten2.

Morten2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hilti makes a wide variety of "firestops" that are
> regularly used in the construction industry and
> approved for penetrations in rated (fire) walls.
>
> Here's a listing :
>
>
>
> I wonder if these sealents, caulkings, etc...
> would be approved for penetrations inside the
> cabin such as around tubes, bulkheads, etc. ?
>
> If they're approved in mechanical rooms, boiler
> rooms, electrical rooms, residentially as well as
> commercially - logic would suggest thay would have
> automotive applications too ?
>
> Edit : fix dead link
>
>
>
> Edited 1 times. Last edit at May 6, 2009 by
> Morten2.


That is the stuff I used to seal the roll cage holes in the firewall. Helps that my dad is a commerical insulator so he has gallons of the stuff in the garage already.

I was planning on using the same stuff for the fuel cell too - but haven't consulted with anyone on it yet. My only concern is UV resistence when used in an application that sees light a la 2 box cars. I'll see if my dad has to cover this stuff in any of his exterior applications....

---

-Jason

heymagic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Well a piano hinge isn't fluid proof. The rest of
> the process would be fine.

I was thinking along the lines of this sketch (below) -- I imagine if my high school drafting instructor saw this he'd have a stroke, but I think it might be legible enough for anarchists

>
> I doubt that RA is in a position to be engineering
> fuel cells or fills. As soon as you did get one
> figured out it won't fit the next car or the next
> builders vision. Too many variables for a one size
> fits all fuel cell. It's one thing to look at
> something and say it appears to be sufficient and
> meet the letter of the rule ( an FIA rule btw)
> .It's a whole 'nuther issue to be designing
> something for people to use and accepting that
> responsibility.

I'm a bit puzzled by the belt and suspenders approach myself -- I do sort of understand the reservations about an outside filler neck that could be torn loose by a stray tree.

I can't comment on the the engineering resources at Rally America but I figure if they're smart enough to make a rule, they ought to be smart enough to provide you with a method of unequivocally following said rule...

Cheers, Ted

---

Pure mathematics is the enemy of every truly creative man -- Sir Alec

That piano hinge would be ok as the seal is before the hinge.

RA didn't make up the rule. NASA uses the same rule. It is the FIA requirement. There are several ways to do a 2 box car and more being thought up all the time. With the new Sube and mazda 3 being 2 box cars maybe we'll see more interest and new methods in a few years.

Other than the VW needing to move the tank to make a stronger axle or suspension most cars don't benefit much from a fuel cell. It raises the CG , compromises interior space and somewhat endangers the occupants. I ahven't seen a bunch of stock tanks exploding on stage.

In the last few years in the PNW I think there has only been a couple of cars with cells. Just han't been all that popular. Now Timm, Jason and Burress are all doing one.

heymagic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That piano hinge would be ok as the seal is before
> the hinge.
>
> RA didn't make up the rule. NASA uses the same
> rule. It is the FIA requirement. There are
> several ways to do a 2 box car and more being
> thought up all the time. With the new Sube and
> mazda 3 being 2 box cars maybe we'll see more
> interest and new methods in a few years.
>
> Other than the VW needing to move the tank to make
> a stronger axle or suspension most cars don't
> benefit much from a fuel cell. It raises the CG ,
> compromises interior space and somewhat endangers
> the occupants. I ahven't seen a bunch of stock
> tanks exploding on stage.
>
> In the last few years in the PNW I think there has
> only been a couple of cars with cells. Just han't
> been all that popular. Now Timm, Jason and Burress
> are all doing one.


Gene, a quick search on that other site found a post from Hurst stating it was rally America's own interpertation of the rule.

When this was initially thrust on to us, many many people posted photos of then current set ups in cars competing in FIA events.

These were edited away by a certain co-driver/moderator or some such flunky.

There have been phone calls made, requests for clarification directly to FIA who responded "You do not understand, no rule could possibly be read as requiring such things, contact your ASN for clarification..." and in response to informing who ever it was that indeed the ASN was insisting on covers upon covers upon covers in some nightmarish pile, they said "No, iy=t is you who must be misunderstanding, no organisation could possibly be sooooooo stupid, Good Bye!"*
Fuckin French.

So as your attorney I advise you not to suggest or even hint that this bizarre cluster fuck requirement is an FIA interpretation. I have plenty of photos of FIA approved cells and fill arrangements, happy to share, but that is pointless and that much is clear.

as for how many hatch cars:
I sold 5 more somewhere, "Seattle Scott" Koch in Ballard---who needs a log book pre-check, Skye Poier who's car is in Puyallup and mine.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/06/2009 11:33PM by john vanlandingham.

Ok, so, this only works if you use AN lines for the fill/vent. They dont even have to leave the car, if you do it right, I'll show pics of vermont sports car's setup. To be legal, the AN lines need to be terminated outside the car with an "easy to fail" mount so when you wrap around a telephone pole, tree, whatever, it cant rip out of the cell. Or you can dead end them in the trunk/hatch area, like vermont does. Oh, and you have to cap the fill line with something like a AN cap or dry break or whatever.

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

Oh, and I'm not sure whats going on with being difficult to get your design past Hurst... I emailed him a few times and he was quick to respond, helpful, and agreeable.

In addition, at Doo Wops this year, I drew out my plan on a napkin with a red pen and presented it to him in person. On a napkin. He approved it.

Maybe try lesser quality drawings? lol

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

I'm pretty sure I never said there weren't any hatchbacks, I've seen 2 in the PNW that had cells, Todd's Audi and a turbo Sprint. Both had covers over them. Timm has it figured out, of course he is just a punk troll Cars that aren't actually competing, or close to it and people that don't have competition licenses don't count all that much ( not being mean ).

FIA language states pretty clearly that if mounted in the luggage compartment the cell must be seperated by a liquid proof and fireproof structure. Also states fuel fill cannpot be mounted in the window or beyond the body. Also states that fuel lines (fill) must be of aviation quality. Also looks like the new standards will require foam honeycombed panels in the enclosure. Not to mention the bladder age of 5 years. I think I read that if they have a fill tube they need a dry break also, it's late and I may be mistaken.

Oddly enough the current points leading RA Championship car is sitting about 150ft from me right now. It has been bumped, jumped, rolled and generally driven pretty hard and obviously competitvely. It has the stock Mitsu tank in the stock location...amazing.

We know you can put it in a box with a lid. You can add AN lines like Timm. You can fully cover the fill tube and cell and use an outside fill, just recess it. Uncovered hose, drier hose, inlets than can be hit with the jack or spare tire or break free under impact won't be allowed.

I know Hurst has discussed this with the leading tech people at FIA, it's not something he is making up. All the old pictures don't matter. Spend some time reading the FIA rules. http://www.fia.com/sport/Regulations/sportcoderegs.html

RA is very good about working with concerns of competitors, I've seen it and been fortunate to be involved with the process at times.