Welding and re-drilling a wheel hub - what to look out for?

Hey guys.

I'm contemplating turning a 5x100 mm. wheel hub from a Golf Mk III VR6 into 4x100 mm. for my Golf Mk II.
I'm having problems with shearing of my CV joints, so figured I would go all in and convert to VR6-joints, since they are beefier.
In order to reuse my ton of wheels, my brakes, etc., I need to stay 4x100 - but no hub from VW for the bigger CV joints are in that dimension.

I have two choices of welders - MIG and stick. An assortment of sticks as well. Fairly good with MIG, bit rusty on the stick stuff, but I'll manage.
I also have the drill press, and a lathe for skimming the surface.

So - no problems equipment-wise - but I'm wondering if there's anything to look out for? I've seen pictures on this forum, where it was done to some Supra-gear I think. Probably JVL's doing.

I've laid out the holes on paper, and using one of the original 5x100 holes, none of the other 3 4x100 holes will overlap the original holes.

So I'm thinking it's a walk in the park, but would like to know for sure :-).

Thanks in advance!

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Brgrds
Brian

How much power does your MIG welder have? You're not going to do this properly with a 110V MIG welder. I've done it a few times and prefer spray arc to ensure good penetration. Ask your welding supplier for some 90% Ar--10% CO2 mix and turn the power up until it changes to spray transfer. Clamp a copper block on the backside of the hole and fill up the holes.

-Tim

I'm on the other side of the pond - we don't have 110V - it's 240V minimum - mine is 400V. 180 amps :-).

I actually have some mixed gas - think it's around 18% CO2 and 82% Ar though - how's that?

I will have to look for the copper. I have thin sheets, but that probably won't suffice - or?

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Brgrds
Brian

18% will just barely support spray transfer if you have enough power...20% is considered the max. A lower the CO2 content of 2%-10% will result in less spatter loss and the more stable the arc.

As long as the copper is thick enough to not melt through it will work fine.

Du Woldewrt, insure yourself that tyhose hubs for the Faule Vee are steel.

Maybe some preheating might help.

Steel is what those Toyota things were Kevin HÃ¥kansson and I were putting in the Volvos and the Volvo things we modded for the Toyota.

I wonder why I am worrying about those hub flange (flansen vet du) being IRON, probably becvause I'm just out of the hospital and full of drugs, and can't remember, or that I'm as super baddies and I'm just trying to be mean to you, as always.

(Faen, jag har int hunnit kalla dig nåt elak!)

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

y becvause I'm
> just out of the hospital and full of drugs,

> John Vanlandingham
> Sleezattle, WA, USA

Any good drugs?

Heal up soon!

---

Andrew Steere
Lyndeborough, NH
KB1PJY

fiasco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> y becvause I'm
> > just out of the hospital and full of drugs,
>
> > John Vanlandingham
> > Sleezattle, WA, USA
>
> Any good drugs?

Not seeing any tropical tree squids and it's keeping the edge off the pain where they cut and stretched things but the crushed disc and the big fat nerve that was pinched is all better.
Cannot believe its taken this many years to get anybody to do anything.
>
> Heal up soon!
>
> Andrew Steere, 1973
> Lyndeborough, NH
> KB1PJY

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

You so need to lay off the drugs JVL :-).

> Du Woldewrt, insure yourself that tyhose hubs for
> the Faule Vee are steel.
>
> Maybe some preheating might help.
>
> Steel is what those Toyota things were Kevin
> HÃ¥kansson and I were putting in the Volvos and the
> Volvo things we modded for the Toyota.
>
> I wonder why I am worrying about those hub flange
> (flansen vet du) being IRON, probably becvause I'm
> just out of the hospital and full of drugs, and
> can't remember, or that I'm as super baddies and

I'm not quite sure I get the point - your Swedish is probably better than mine - but am I correct in assuming that you want me to check whether the hub flange is iron or steel (hardened)?
A small trip to ye ole bench grinder should sort that out...

So if it's steel, I need to be careful given problems with heat treatment, etc. - not to mention the problems with actually drilling, tapping, etc.

> I'm just trying to be mean to you, as always.

No you'er not - sorry, not gonna hand that to ya ;-).

> (Faen, jag har int hunnit kalla dig nåt elak!)

See... your Swedish is better than mine - I have no clue what that means :-).

---

Brgrds
Brian

wildert Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You so need to lay off the drugs JVL :-).

No I just had what they call "major surgery" so they cut me up pretty good, so I need something or or it'll be like before they cut me. Blinding, mind numbing pain.
Now it's OK.

>
> > Du Woldewrt, insure yourself that tyhose hubs
> for
> > the Faule Vee are steel.
> >
> > Maybe some preheating might help.
> >
> > Steel is what those Toyota things were Kevin
> > HÃ¥kansson and I were putting in the Volvos
> and the
> > Volvo things we modded for the Toyota.
> >
> > I wonder why I am worrying about those hub
> flange
> > (flansen vet du) being IRON, probably
> becvause I'm
> > just out of the hospital and full of drugs,
> and
> > can't remember, or that I'm as super baddies
> and
>
> I'm not quite sure I get the point - your Swedish
> is probably better than mine - but am I correct in
> assuming that you want me to check whether the hub
> flange is iron or steel (hardened)?
> A small trip to ye ole bench grinder should sort
> that out...

Yeah check if they are IRON which will not be fun to weld or if they are steel which will be OK no problem to weld.
My Sierra hubs are steel, my Saab hubs are iron.
I cannot recall what the VW hubs are.

>
> So if it's steel, I need to be careful given
> problems with heat treatment, etc. - not to
> mention the problems with actually drilling,
> tapping, etc.

No don't worry if its steel. Steel in areas like hubs and flywheels is usually verty mild alloys where you never want to have the chance for cracks to form, so no fancy anything.
As I said maybe a little pre-heat and what Kevvi used was big mig with fluxcore AND gas. Good penetration and clean weld.


If the hubs or flange is IRON then I don't know what to suggest.

>
> > I'm just trying to be mean to you, as
> always.
>
> No you'er not - sorry, not gonna hand that to ya
> ;-).
>
> > (Faen, jag har int hunnit kalla dig nåt
> elak!)
>
> See... your Swedish is better than mine - I have
> no clue what that means :-).

Really?


Faen is just variation on all purpose All Nordisk Fan,
jag is jeg,
har int= ikke hunnit is "had a chance yet" ,
kalla dig is Call you,
nåt is 'någanting' or something and
elak is 'mean'
>

In other words:
Damn I haven't yet had a chance to call you something mean.

How come I can read Danish if you can't read simple Swedish?
> Brgrds
> Brian
>
>

Hey while you are fixing these hubs, have a peek at MkIV rear spindle and hub. It is many times fatter spindle, very good looking and I have plans to see what we can do to get some ofd those onto Tom Burress Golf since he's the current fastest --and meanest--guy out in a VW now.



Much bigger than this little jokes:

The thing is 5 bolt but while we're welding up holes why not weldy-weldy a little more>

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> wildert Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > You so need to lay off the drugs JVL :-).
>
> No I just had what they call "major surgery" so
> they cut me up pretty good, so I need something or
> or it'll be like before they cut me. Blinding,
> mind numbing pain.
> Now it's OK.

Ah - yeah - I get the point. My mom had her kidney taken out with a cancer tumor in it just before christmas - no walk in the park I tell ya. Luckily everything went fine, and no spreading at all (fingers crossed that it'll stay that way).
Hope you get well too...

> Yeah check if they are IRON which will not be fun
> to weld or if they are steel which will be OK no
> problem to weld.
> My Sierra hubs are steel, my Saab hubs are iron.
> I cannot recall what the VW hubs are.

Ah - so iron, as in cast iron?
Actually I will be buying a new one - pattern parts for Golves are so cheap, and given that it's a wheel hub, I'm not really scared of what the quality might be like. I've held a 4-hole from the same company, and it looks machined, so I'm thinking steel, not cast.

Danish wreckers basically think that they deal in solid 24 carat gold or something - way too expensive to buy stuff like that from them, when it's for a Golf. Go figure...

> No don't worry if its steel. Steel in areas like
> hubs and flywheels is usually verty mild alloys
> where you never want to have the chance for cracks
> to form, so no fancy anything.
> As I said maybe a little pre-heat and what Kevvi
> used was big mig with fluxcore AND gas. Good
> penetration and clean weld.

Okie dokie - duly noted. I actually have a couple of extra hubs - could be that I should practice on those.

> Really?

Well - not totally - I had a vague idea, but you probably could've convinced of something else, as long as it wasn't too far out :-).

> Faen is just variation on all purpose All Nordisk
> Fan,
> jag is jeg,
> har int= ikke hunnit is "had a chance yet" ,
> kalla dig is Call you,
> nåt is 'någanting' or something and
> elak is 'mean'
> >
>
> In other words:
> Damn I haven't yet had a chance to call you
> something mean.
>
> How come I can read Danish if you can't read
> simple Swedish?

Well - I think you just stumpled on a sentence where quite a lot of the significant words, have little or no similarity between Danish and Swedish.

"int hunnit" is "ikke haft" in Danish - pretty far from it, and I didn't know that expression. I know "inte", and figured that "int" had to be something along those lines, but having no clue what "hunnit" meant, didn't help me one bit.

Also "elak" would be something like "dårligt", "slemt", "ondt" or "skidt" (last one like "skit" in Swedish) - but I didn't know that word either.

Luckily Google Translator helped me catch the gist :-).

> Hey while you are fixing these hubs, have a peek
> at MkIV rear spindle and hub. It is many times
> fatter spindle, very good looking and I have plans
> to see what we can do to get some ofd those onto
> Tom Burress Golf since he's the current fastest
> --and meanest--guy out in a VW now.

Yeah - I know - it's just about a very easy swap from what I gather.
In Britain theres a pretty good VW website called Club GTI (www.clubgti.com). Most of the guys on there are mostly into track days, but they do take those pretty serious. It's not much of a boy racer forum like Vortex.
But a pretty good source of information on all the VW motorsport parts, upgrades that MATTER out on the track, etc.

Anyway - from that site I've learned that it's a pretty common upgrade. You get proper large ball bearings as well, instead of the puny and very annoying taper roller bearings.
Also the brake calipers should be a bit of an upgrade.
A lot of these Brits transplant the ABF-engine of the Mk III GTI 16V into their cars, along with most of the drive train, axles, wishbones, brakes, etc. - that gives them 5x100 and if using VR6 wishbones, a much wider track.
Once 5x100 in front - it's natural to go to 5x100 in the back. And some use the Mk IV spindle.

From what I know, it's just about a straight swap onto the Mk II rear beam. Just need basically everything from the Mk IV: spindle, hub, brake disc, brake caliper, etc. Then you should be good to go.

> The thing is 5 bolt but while we're welding up
> holes why not weldy-weldy a little more>

Yup - pretty easy...

Thing is though - I don't have that much use for it. The events I compete in are much shorter, and on fairly flat tarmac. The rear beam bends before the spindles on a Mk II in those conditions :-).
Also - I just became a dad 2 weeks ago, so I've promised the missus: no more upgrades just for the heck of it. Racing's good - but no improvements unless something has broken - at least for this season :-).

Thanks for the advice though!

---

Brgrds
Brian

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey while you are fixing these hubs, have a peek
> at MkIV rear spindle and hub. It is many times
> fatter spindle, very good looking and I have plans
> to see what we can do to get some ofd those onto
> Tom Burress Golf since he's the current fastest
> --and meanest--guy out in a VW now.

I'll be interested to see how this turns out. I had this idea a few years ago, but never got much past measuring a mk4 spindle's bolt pattern.

any reason you don't just convert to 5x100?

conversion hubs and a set of new wheel bearings for the front, drill your rotors to match. mk3 vr6 rear rotors (and a set of new bearings) in the back.

less than $300 and you don't have to muck with the wheels.

also the 4x100 are usually M12 and the 5x100 are usually M14 -- sturdy wheel mounting!

---

------------------------------------

http://www.ckrally.com

cblakely Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> any reason you don't just convert to 5x100?
>
> conversion hubs and a set of new wheel bearings
> for the front, drill your rotors to match. mk3 vr6
> rear rotors (and a set of new bearings) in the
> back.
>
> less than $300 and you don't have to muck with the
> wheels.
>
> also the 4x100 are usually M12 and the 5x100 are
> usually M14 -- sturdy wheel mounting!
>
> ------------------------------------
>
>
VR6 rear discs are still the old tapered bearing style which would mount on the weaker stub axle. The mk4 stub axle is beefier and uses a sealed bearing similar to a front wheel bearing on most fwd cars. So the brake rotor in the rear is just a rotor, you dont have to muck around with changing bearings or packing grease or pressing in races if you need to change rotors quick in service. Just whip off the old disc and slap in the new one.

What are these "conversion hubs" you speak of for the front?

cblakely Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> any reason you don't just convert to 5x100?
>
> conversion hubs and a set of new wheel bearings
> for the front, drill your rotors to match. mk3 vr6
> rear rotors (and a set of new bearings) in the
> back.
>
> less than $300 and you don't have to muck with the
> wheels.
>
> also the 4x100 are usually M12 and the 5x100 are
> usually M14 -- sturdy wheel mounting!
>
> ------------------------------------

Seems like a long way to go, instead of just converting the hubs to 4x100...

---

Brgrds
Brian

so the oem 5-lug hubs are splined differently (they are meant for VR6 axles) which have a larger overall length meant for a slightly wider front track.

A conversion hub is the same splines and dimensions as a regular 4x100 front hub but with a 5x100 bolt circle. Then you just have to re-drill your rotor to match the hub.

They used to be attainable for around $60 each from www.bildon.com but I looked and they don't have them in their catalog there anymore.

ECS tuning has the parts but for a higher price -- which I guess isn't really that much higher, just depends on what you're used to paying for wheel bearings. I think I get fronts for around $40 per side, so $200 vs $230, not earth shatterng.

http://www.ecstuning.com/Search/Hubs/ES1046/

---

------------------------------------

http://www.ckrally.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/04/2009 11:39AM by cblakely.