Reinforcing engine bay areas

Might as well post this hear to hear from more people,

With the recent thread about strengthening the front arms in a subaru, that raises some questions.

First, When the arms are strengthened, and the nose gets hit, where does the force go?

Secondly, Does the rigidity advantage outweigh the crush zone your replacing? In your opinions, is the strengthening a bodyshell saver, or a RALLY saver (IE, stuffing it and being able to continue)?

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

Dazed_Driver Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Might as well post this hear <spelling "here"> to hear from more
> people,
>
> With the recent thread about strengthening the
> front arms in a subaru, that raises some
> questions.
>
> First, When the arms are strengthened, and the
> nose gets hit, where does the force go?

Same place as before.
>
> Secondly, Does the rigidity advantage outweigh the
> crush zone your replacing? In your opinions, is
> the strengthening a bodyshell saver, or a RALLY
> saver (IE, stuffing it and being able to
> continue)?

Both.
>
> Feisty Peacock?
>
> My noodle I doodled was ate by a poodle

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

(I haven't driven a single stage yet)

I'm building my car (old Subaru) with the hopes that if I hit something pretty hard, the front subframe and front strut tops don't shift too much. If I'm out of the rally but my co-driver (wife) and I aren't hurt - that's fine by me, I should have stayed away from the hard stuff. If I hit something really hard and have to throw the car in the dumpster - I'll be glad there was some soft areas in the car to absorb the blow. As far as I'm concerned, the area in front of my strut tops is a throw away area, I bought a welder for a reason.

Subaru did a fantastic job, in my oppinion, of creating a crumple zone. they designed it to save lives, I'm not going to mess with it a whole lot...

As for the front control arms; I'm not convinced that the alignment blocks that the rear bushing bolts into are that strong (GC chassis). I am certain that they are a part of my car I don't want to have to fix. I'll run steel OEM arms until I feel they are holding me back.

Maybe somebody can correct my assumption here. but I think that as long as the suspension mounting points are strong (cage tied in where possible), everything forward of that is for safety and has no real effect on handling... ?

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dazed_Driver Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------

> > Secondly, Does the rigidity advantage
> outweigh the
> > crush zone your replacing? In your opinions,
> is
> > the strengthening a bodyshell saver, or a
> RALLY
> > saver (IE, stuffing it and being able to
> > continue)?
>
> Both.


>
>
> John Vanlandingham
> Sleezattle, WA, USA
>
> Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
>
> www.jvab.f4.ca



My area of concern is safety. Do you loose a level of saftey by replacing the crumple zone (to save the rad, or engine accessories)?

Hmm... Nice, over two sites its about 70/30, un-reinforced. And John, good call on the spelling error.

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/2009 11:50AM by Dazed_Driver.

Dazed_Driver Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hmm... Nice, over two sites its about 70/30,
> un-reinforced. And John, good call on the spelling
> error.
>

Well Timm, you should always rely on what boys on sites who have so much more experience than any manufacturer does say and follow their reasoning.

What could Ford or VW or Prodrive or Rally-art or Lancia or for that matter anyboy in the past 35 years in the whole rest of the world possibly know since you have such impeccable sources recommending against reinforcing.


Don't reinforce.

I just wonder why the first thing on the first page of both of Fords famous Rally Preparation books being with "Strengthening the Bodyshell".

Gotta wonder if "the 70%" and Timm have ever bothered to read even the first pages of those nice books we went to so much trouble to scan and host?

If they did, then how could they conclude otherwise?




> Feisty Peacock?
>
> My noodle I doodled was ate by a poodle
>
>
>
> Edited 1 times. Last edit at Jun 2, 2009 by
> Dazed_Driver.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I was first car on scene to a big rally accident with injuries that required a helicopter on a supremely reinforced car. There is a possibility that the injuries would have been less had the crumple zones been able to work. On the other hand, they went dead on into a tree at a high rate of speed. It's possible there would have been little to no difference. It's like the two V vs. door X. It only takes one accident to convince people that one was is better or worse.
A few facts, any minor offs will cost more to fix with un-reinforced (or less) body shell. Your shell will not last as long and will have a shorter life span.

Mine is not really reinforced. I seam welded a little bit and probably will seam weld in the engine bay someday when I have the engine out of the car. I also have a car that I've been offered shells for free in the past and I am able to build my own cage for the most part so replacing the whole shell is not very costly in money, just in time for me.

---

Grant Hughes

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Gotta wonder if "the 70%" and Timm have ever
> bothered to read even the first pages of those
> nice books we went to so much trouble to scan and
> host?
>
> John Vanlandingham
> Sleezattle, WA, USA
>
> Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
>
> www.jvab.f4.ca

Where are these hosted?

EDIT: http://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,4777,11419,phorum_session_v5=Morten%3Ad1aa9d9ce46af04d3a717b54a802a0a9





Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/2009 02:03PM by Daniel Buehler.

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dazed_Driver Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Hmm... Nice, over two sites its about 70/30,
> > un-reinforced. And John, good call on the
> spelling
> > error.
> >
>
> Well Timm, you should always rely on what boys on
> sites who have so much more experience than any
> manufacturer does say and follow their reasoning.
>
> What could Ford or VW or Prodrive or Rally-art or
> Lancia or for that matter anyboy in the past 35
> years in the whole rest of the world possibly
> know since you have such impeccable sources
> recommending against reinforcing.
>
>
> Don't reinforce.
>
> I just wonder why the first thing on the first
> page of both of Fords famous Rally Preparation
> books being with "Strengthening the Bodyshell".
>
> Gotta wonder if "the 70%" and Timm have ever
> bothered to read even the first pages of those
> nice books we went to so much trouble to scan and
> host?
>
> If they did, then how could they conclude
> otherwise?
>
>
>
>
> > Feisty Peacock?
> >
> > My noodle I doodled was ate by a poodle
> >
> >
> >
> > Edited 1 times. Last edit at Jun 2, 2009 by
> > Dazed_Driver.
>
>
>
>
> John Vanlandingham
> Sleezattle, WA, USA
>
> Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
>
> www.jvab.f4.ca


You read the percent wrong, I think... 70/30 un-reinforced means that 70 says not too. Meaning majority's opinion is not too, meaning it would be ok to skip it.

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

Dazed_Driver Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> john vanlandingham Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Dazed_Driver Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Hmm... Nice, over two sites its about
> 70/30,
> > > un-reinforced. And John, good call on
> the
> > spelling
> > > error.
> > >
> >
> > Well Timm, you should always rely on what
> boys on
> > sites who have so much more experience than
> any
> > manufacturer does say and follow their
> reasoning.
> >
> > What could Ford or VW or Prodrive or
> Rally-art or
> > Lancia or for that matter anyboy in the past
> 35
> > years in the whole rest of the world
> possibly
> > know since you have such impeccable sources
> > recommending against reinforcing.
> >
> >
> > Don't reinforce.
> >
> > I just wonder why the first thing on the
> first
> > page of both of Fords famous Rally
> Preparation
> > books being with "Strengthening the
> Bodyshell".
> >
> > Gotta wonder if "the 70%" and Timm have ever
> > bothered to read even the first pages of
> those
> > nice books we went to so much trouble to scan
> and
> > host?
> >
> > If they did, then how could they conclude
> > otherwise?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Feisty Peacock?
> > >
> > > My noodle I doodled was ate by a poodle
>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Edited 1 times. Last edit at Jun 2,
> 2009 by
> > > Dazed_Driver.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > John Vanlandingham
> > Sleezattle, WA, USA
> >
> > Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
> >
> > www.jvab.f4.ca
>
>
> You read the percent wrong, I think... 70/30
> un-reinforced means that 70 says not too. Meaning
> majority's opinion is not too, meaning it would be
> ok to skip it.

Fuck me Timmy, that's exactly as i read it and why I suggested you don't reinforce it.
Obviously 70% of people who have never done something should outweigh the experiences of those who have foolished wasted their time reinforcing things.

Of course the important bit where the question was posed "Wonder why first thing on the first page" remained unaddressed.

Wonder why?
>
> Feisty Peacock?
>
> My noodle I doodled was ate by a poodle

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Daniel Buehler Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My area of concern is safety. Do you loose a level
> of saftey by replacing the crumple zone (to save
> the rad, or engine accessories)?

With a harness and a Hans I honestly don't see crumple zones helping you that much. That being said, without a doubt it's safer to keep them in. But, the crumple zones were designed for the road going car with road going safety gear.

My biggest worry, with all the strapping in these days, would be something hitting me, not me slowing down slow enough.

That's my 2 cents.

---

Andrew M
Onterrible
30ish

Crumple zones are primarily for car vs. car impacts. I don't think that the crumple zone strategy is going to help much when hitting a rock or tree. I say reinforce the shit out of it!

Robert.

---

Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

Rallymech Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Crumple zones are primarily for car vs. car
> impacts. I don't think that the crumple zone
> strategy is going to help much when hitting a rock
> or tree. I say reinforce the shit out of it!
>
> Robert.


You lost me there. I thought the whole point of a crumple zone was to cause deceleration at a slower/safer rate, regardless of what you hit.

---

Andrew M
Onterrible
30ish

Rallymech Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Crumple zones are primarily for car vs. car
> impacts. I don't think that the crumple zone
> strategy is going to help much when hitting a rock
> or tree. I say reinforce the shit out of it!
>
> Robert.

You trying to start a fight?? Wassamastta U? Your pickelhaube glided down in front of diene augen, junge???! Can't you see he said 70% say don't.
And it doesn't matter who they are, it's on the Inter-netz it must be TRUE verstätz?

I'm sure all those works cars youäve seen were done just to keep guys busy, like scraping kua-gummi off the kasern floor weist du.

Diziplin!

So get with it arschlauch, 70% against!

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You trying to start a fight?? Wassamastta U? Your
> pickelhaube glided down in front of diene augen,
> junge???! Can't you see he said 70% say don't.
> And it doesn't matter who they are, it's on the
> Inter-netz it must be TRUE verstätz?
>
> I'm sure all those works cars youäve seen were
> done just to keep guys busy, like scraping
> kua-gummi off the kasern floor weist du.
>
> Diziplin!
>
> So get with it arschlauch, 70% against!

I think this discussion is quickly turning into a dogma shit slinging contest.

I think the facts are:

All car shells are quickly spot welded together.

Seam welding them adds stiffness and two fifths of fuckall weight.. A fair amount of time, but a no brainer. If you're worried that this is a major safety issue you have issues.

Strengthening the area's of the car that take load from driving down the road is a good idea.. it saves your shell and can save your rally.

As to strengthening the frontal area of your car in front of your front suspension loading zones.. I think this is safe as long as you do it with some common sense. You want to strengthen it so that if you go through a ditch or brush something you still have all your bits in working order and not eating tin. At the same time you don't want to turn your car and cage into a battering ram.

If you haven't and hit something hard enough fast enough, stuff will become a crumple zone.

I'd worry more about something impaling you.

Remember that crumple zones are for people wearing a 3 point seat belt. Not a full body, head and neck restraining device.

---

Andrew M
Onterrible
30ish