Rules these days are written in
> one of the Private Corporations sanctioning
> rallies in USA to try
> > to keep the Corporation from being sued and
> the private fortune of one person from being
> plundered, not
> > so much for what is actually safer or more
> > logical.
>
>
> Uh, fixed.

I suppose if I had amassed a fortune of eleventy billion dollars (or any sum worthy of note), I'd rather not have it sucked away by some ambulance chaser, so you can't necessarily blame somebody for doing that. You'd be a fool not to make
some effort to cover your ass.

Besides, how hard is it to get some red and white cans of spray paint and some stencils and spray FIA FT-3 on things? j/k

Ah, the joys of living in a litigious society...I always liked an old Peter Egan column in Road & Track where he proposed having "The Order of the Red Card," where if you wanted to do something fun like race cars or skydive, you could waive your right to sue by signing this master liability release and having the "red card" allowing you to engage in fun but potentially risky activities.

I already pay extra for my life insurance because I answered honestly about the one time I competed in a stage rally when I went to get a policy...
>
> > Well then as a scrutineer shouldn't you have
> > caught that in a log book or tech inspection
> and
> > not let them compete until it was fixed
> properly?
> > Just sayin'...
> >
> Say no more, SAY NO MORE!!!!
>
>
>
>
> John Vanlandingham
> Sleezattle, WA, USA
>
> Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
>
> www.jvab.f4.ca

---

Andrew Steere
Lyndeborough, NH
KB1PJY

The problem with lawsuits is you never know who it is aimed at. People like to take shots at Havir because he has money, but a lawsuit could easily include the local organizer, the scrutineer, the next competitor on scene, land owners and so on. You can try to waive your right to sue, but survivors are another issue. Spouse, children, parents all sue every day for loss of affection and income. Hot coffee, farting in a library, risque pictures in a library, police shooting an armed suspect, first responders getting sued for not doing enough to resusitate someone. The last two examples are in Washington courts as I type this. So yeah, leave your fuel tank alone...

Just to de-personalize this a bit, since IMO, all the sanctioning bodies do this, not just the one that happens to be run by a well off dude .

Loss/expense of insurance coverage is probably more relevant than people losing personal fortunes. Insurance companies are looking for excuses to either increase their rates or drop coverage. Bad for anyone who wants to compete. With so few companies offering coverage they can essentially dictate the risk management plan (which indirectly includes the safety rules).

Since assumptions get me in trouble so often I suppose I ought to ask the organizer types on here. Is insurance the largest single cost in putting an event on today?

t

---

Pure mathematics is the enemy of every truly creative man -- Sir Alec

Ted Andkilde Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just to de-personalize this a bit, since IMO, all
> the sanctioning bodies do this, not just the one
> that happens to be run by a well off dude .
>
> Loss/expense of insurance coverage is probably
> more relevant than people losing personal
> fortunes. Insurance companies are looking for
> excuses to either increase their rates or drop
> coverage. Bad for anyone who wants to compete.
> With so few companies offering coverage they can
> essentially dictate the risk management plan
> (which indirectly includes the safety rules).
>
> Since assumptions get me in trouble so often I
> suppose I ought to ask the organizer types on
> here. Is insurance the largest single cost in
> putting an event on today?
>
> t
>
> Pure mathematics is the enemy of every truly
> creative man -- Sir Alec


Insurance costs are fixed for the size of the event. Coef1,2,3 all have increasing costs. More miles=more risk. Road use fees from land owners are actually the wild card. DooWops for example has very small road use fees due to the massive efforts of Ray Damitio contacting owners and maintaing a great relationship. On the flip side Dept of Nat Resources wanted $40k to use DNR lands for Olympus . Less than 20 miles from DooWop stages....

So excluding road fees insurance is it. If you consider the various risk factors you can see why. Looking from strictly an outside business viewpoint...

Speeds of cars
Mixed road surfaces
Terrain
Skill level/experience/abilities of drivers
Prep level of cars
Remoteness of sport

Probably many other factors to consider from an insurance perspective. The fact that we have a pretty good safety record is probably hard to explain on paper in a logical fashion. If an insurer looks at the potential imcome in a year versus the potential payout from one incident I'm not sure there is any sort of balance there.

I wouldn't compete without insurance, I won't organize without insurance. Risk in my life has to be balanced against my responsiblities to wife, child, business, employees, customers and so on.

I'll guarantee Doug Havir hasn't seen any profit from the money and energy that has been expended in forming and maintaining Rally America. SCCA didn't dump us because we are a money maker.

So I'll try to make this a bit more personal for my pal JVL. Being jealous of someone because they have large wealth makes you a pretty small person. Stop it. No one owes you or me a free ride for our recreational needs. From a business stand point, I somehow doubt you have business liability insurance. You, your wife and lovely children are one failed strut away from living in that old Merkur shell that is in the driveway.

It is not just John Lane's risk from having a flakey gas tank installation. That risk moves to everyone else associated with the event. This is after all America, land of nothing is free and some frickin attorney is going to make sure you pay.

The Big Rules that govern how we live, recreate and do business are not made by RA or NRS. They are made by people with law degrees and supported by jurys ( that think people or insurance companies with money are evil). Don't blame Havir, Niday, Hurst or me for the rules you have to compete under. Blame your Aunt Matilda who is eager and willing to sue the daylites out of everybody for your error.

heymagic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The problem with lawsuits is you never know who it
> is aimed at. People like to take shots at Havir
> because he has money, but a lawsuit could easily
> include the local organizer, the scrutineer, the
> next competitor on scene, land owners and so on.
> You can try to waive your right to sue, but
> survivors are another issue. Spouse, children,
> parents all sue every day for loss of affection
> and income. Hot coffee, farting in a library,
> risque pictures in a library, police shooting an
> armed suspect, first responders getting sued for
> not doing enough to resusitate someone. The last
> two examples are in Washington courts as I type
> this. So yeah, leave your fuel tank alone...


Gentlemen! I am only speaking about the motivating factor in how the rules are written and the efforts and justifications in the way they are internally defended.
A very wise guy--fawk y'all I said a wise guy, not a 'fawkin wiseguy'---said"the overarching concern is "Is this a safe construction, method etc" as a contrast to..........what I's referring to.

Settle down!

Or I'll fawkin sues youse!

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Ted Andkilde Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Since assumptions get me in trouble so often I
> suppose I ought to ask the organizer types on
> here. Is insurance the largest single cost in
> putting an event on today?

Insurance is probably third I would guess. Prize money, road use fees, then insurance. Ha. Actually I bet the rental fee for the Home Depot Center is the single largest expense in US rally at the moment.

BTW, I heard first place at Rally Mexico next month in Guanajuato pays $50K to the overall winner...

---

Grant Hughes

heymagic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>> It is not just John Lane's risk from having a
> flakey gas tank installation.

Gene, how dare you! Them's fighting words and I'm not even joking! I can't believe you just wrote that. Are you even familiar with how the tank is installed in that car? It is not a flaky installation, it is in fact better mounted and in a better spot than it was in the stock location. The trunk is completely sealed off (not just bulkhead but sealed) and the filler neck is in a location where it can not be compromised if you sideswiped a tree or something (unlike the stock location.) It was installed accodrding to the rules and better at the time. I take your comment as an insult and offensive. I demand an apology. No, I am not joking, none of this was written tongue in cheek. If you think ther is something truly flaky about the install then explain in detail.

heymagic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Above
> all else a car has to be deemed safe more than
> compliant.


This. Perhaps some common sense prevails.

Doivi Clarkinen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> heymagic Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >> It is not just John Lane's risk from
> having a
> > flakey gas tank installation.
>
> Gene, how dare you! Them's fighting words and I'm
> not even joking! I can't believe you just wrote
> that. Are you even familiar with how the tank is
> installed in that car? It is not a flaky
> installation, it is in fact better mounted and in
> a better spot than it was in the stock location.
> The trunk is completely sealed off (not just
> bulkhead but sealed) and the filler neck is in a
> location where it can not be compromised if you
> sideswiped a tree or something (unlike the stock
> location.) It was installed accodrding to the
> rules and better at the time. I take your comment
> as an insult and offensive. I demand an apology.
> No, I am not joking, none of this was written
> tongue in cheek. If you think ther is something
> truly flaky about the install then explain in
> detail.


Well I'll tell you big boy, "Flakey" was written tongue in cheek. I've never gotten to look much at Lane's car, but I will at Idaho. I have heard it is held in with readi-rod. Since I have never been bashful about recommeding your work I doubt anyone seriously thinks the word "flakey" is representative of my opinion of your capabilities.

Funny thing is as soon as it is mentioned that something is not allowed someone says that someone's car has that very item done to it. My first rally car had the fuel tank moved into the trunk btw.

Even funnier is that NASA says stock tanks or fuel cell. Doesn't actually specify stock location. Does say that a bulkhead is needed either way, however the fuel cell needs a protective cover over the fill and the fuel tank doesn't. Lo0oks like we need another conference call... Damn this job is fun some days.

heymagic Wrote:
> Even funnier is that NASA says stock tanks or
> fuel cell. Doesn't actually specify stock
> location. Does say that a bulkhead is needed
> either way, however the fuel cell needs a
> protective cover over the fill and the fuel tank
> doesn't. Lo0oks like we need another conference
> call... Damn this job is fun some days.


Ever see the movie "Dogma," Gene? It's possible to make rules until they cave in on themselves to great detriment to the greater good of the sect.

Good luck.

---

Lurch
Eric Burmeister
The west coast...of Michigan

.

---

JohnLane

Overkill is consistently more fun



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/28/2009 02:57PM by JohnLane.

heymagic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Doivi Clarkinen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > heymagic Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > >> It is not just John Lane's risk
> from
> > having a
> > > flakey gas tank installation.
> >
> > Gene, how dare you! Them's fighting words
> and I'm
> > not even joking! I can't believe you just
> wrote
> > that. Are you even familiar with how the
> tank is
> > installed in that car? It is not a flaky
> > installation, it is in fact better mounted
> and in
> > a better spot than it was in the stock
> location.
> > The trunk is completely sealed off (not just
> > bulkhead but sealed) and the filler neck is
> in a
> > location where it can not be compromised if
> you
> > sideswiped a tree or something (unlike the
> stock
> > location.) It was installed accodrding to
> the
> > rules and better at the time. I take your
> comment
> > as an insult and offensive. I demand an
> apology.
> > No, I am not joking, none of this was
> written
> > tongue in cheek. If you think ther is
> something
> > truly flaky about the install then explain
> in
> > detail.
>
>
> Well I'll tell you big boy, "Flakey" was written
> tongue in cheek. I've never gotten to look much at
> Lane's car, but I will at Idaho. I have heard it
> is held in with readi-rod. Since I have never been
> bashful about recommeding your work I doubt anyone
> seriously thinks the word "flakey" is
> representative of my opinion of your capabilities.
>

Well OK then, damn internet... But yeah, it is bolted down securely and has endured 5 or 6 rollovers and never leaked a drop. If it had been in the stock location it would have to be replaced once or twice an event, even with a good skidplate.


>
> Funny thing is as soon as it is mentioned that
> something is not allowed someone says that
> someone's car has that very item done to it. My
> first rally car had the fuel tank moved into the
> trunk btw.
>

Well as you know this was a very common thing to do (for safety) and was done completely to the rules.


> Even funnier is that NASA says stock tanks or
> fuel cell. Doesn't actually specify stock
> location. Does say that a bulkhead is needed
> either way, however the fuel cell needs a
> protective cover over the fill and the fuel tank
> doesn't. Lo0oks like we need another conference
> call... Damn this job is fun some days.

A protective cover over the fill on a cell if it is in the same area as the cockpit (like a VW Golf) but if the whole cell or tank is separated by a fireproof bulkhead then no, correct? So nothing to change I would think.

John's car is fine, well maybe not exactly fine, prolly was fine about a dozen rollovers ago....The fuel tank if secure, and I suspect it is, is not going to be an issue. Don't worry about Dave blabbing on you You are forbidden from withdrawing your entry !

It would be nice if we can eventually work towards a more synchronous rule set though. If we picked the worst ones from CARS,RA and NRS and used those we'd always have something to discuss!!

Just be sure to fix that STUPID rule about where I can put my fuel cell. Some of use coupes still have straight axles.... lol

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

heymagic Wrote:

>I think mid 80s Audi was probably
> the last car to have a trunk mounted gas tank, why
> is that ??

Pontiac GTO/Holden whatever has the tank in the trunk. Plastic unit right out in the open. Those cars have very little trunk space thanks to that.

Now I wonder where it is on a G8, or new Camaro for that matter...

---

Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.