VW Rabbit suspension ideas?

NEFR punished my car this weekend. The car is a '79 VW Rabbit which was setup in WA and run our in the PNW 8 or 9 years ago. It is way too low for some of the brutal stages out here, I smashed my oil pan, control arm mounting points and engine mounts after 4 stages on Sat and DNF'd. We were able to patch the pan and run the last stage conservatively just for fun but one the car was back in the shop it was clear that there is significant damage.

Anyway, I want to give it a lift and stiffen it up in the front. Currently I'm running Bilstein HDs all around with mystery springs that are low and pretty soft. The rear spring perches were set all the way to the bottom but I jacked them up and feel pretty good about the rear but need to figure out what to do up front. Right now my options look like A.find some taller heavier front springs or B. coilovers of some sort.

Any VW drivers/builders with an opinion (especially those who have run NEFR/Black River or other such terrain in early VWs).

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www.DMackTyresUSA.com

I have run all those events including the last NEFR (#145 White Gti ) and have a similar setup. My springs are most likely stiffer but if you are going to spend money might as well spend it once!
If you dont want to worry about suspension ever again get a set of JVABs. Hot Bits are another option but a lot of people break em (usually top mounts etc..) but they also back their product well i hear.

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rally gods would turn in their graves if they ever knew Lada's were now part of EU rallying!!!

Call John at 206-431-9696. He builds nice struts for you car and I know that he is just about to start a production run. I think that his prices are very reasonable. His customer service is also quite good.

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Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

It could be that you are going faster as well and now need more stiffness and ride height.

It's pretty easy to measure up springs and spec some new ones with a larger wire diameter to create stiffness. I used to get custom springs wound for my p-car from a place called Vally Spring. 4 springs = $250. Longer springs will increase ride height. So will some machined rings. I had a Talon one time that sat too low in the front. I just cut out some 1" thick nylon rings that sat in between the top of the strut and the bottom face of the turret. Yeah, I needed longer studs, too. Worked good. I imagine the a bit of tube below the lower perch on the back od a rabbit coilver setup would quickly add ride height. There are cheap fixes.

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Ted Mendham
www.rensport.net

I ran Cut mkII Jetta GLI front springs, they worked well for me, but the rabbit's frame horns are garbage, I welded tube and plate to them to reinforce them on the last car...

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-Tom
DemonRallyTeam | Fine Tuning | CTS Turbo & RP Turbos | RalleyTuned | JRM | Meister Autowerks
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Tom-
I think I may have bashed the co-driver's side horn up by an inch or so. I made a stress bar out of 1 in box tube but it just got flattened. I had a 3/16" aluminum skid plate anchored to the stress bar which did help disperse the blows a bit but it is now trashed along with everything else above it (with the exception of the gearbox, thankfully).

Any photos or details you can offer on the old demon rabbit would be great. I've already spent hours on your website but I don't remember seeing any of the front horn reinforcement.

Skidplate before: http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd32/Greasecar/IMG_0272.jpg

Skidplate After: http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd32/Greasecar/IMG_0365.jpg

How it was sitting before the stages that beat it into submission: http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd32/Greasecar/IMG_0321.jpg

For those of you guys from the PNW, this was Townsend and the "Bunny Boys" old car and running the suspension that they put together. It's always been this low: http://p3racing.net/vw/rabbit/000903078.jpg

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www.DMackTyresUSA.com

Yo Justin, ya know Tom up there^ was really REALLY fast with his little POS Rare-bit and we talked a LOT about the short comings of the Bilstein stuff that everybody always gets to start with, particularly about the lack of travel.
Now you have to realise that whoever put your car together originally didn't really KNOW anything about selecting suspension stuff particularly at that time, they were relying on advice from others and that leads to the same too short, too stiff (cause it has to be stiff when short) stuff that everybody gets.

We can type forever but eventually somebody is going to have to dismount a strut and a shock, disassemble and start measuring...
You get one of each aside then WRITE DOWN in you car Notebook length of the shaft from upper body to the startof the threads.
Measure chrome tube diameter---let's cross the fingers that its 40mm, and measure the chrome tube up to where the chrome stops.

Of course note ALL numbers stamped in at the top.

Post it and in the meantime I'll yakk with Tom to refresh our aged brains where we were thinking before his rare-bit got bent all to hell and he (wisely!) moved over to the Golf shell.

It very well may be that your INSERTS can be used---typically they have an internal shaft travel limiter, and if you ask nicely to the right peeps, that limiter can be deleted at the same time they're doing a revalve/refresh.
The question then becomes if the lower tubes can be used and for Tom B, Robert "Service Nazi/Rally Mech and Eric Christiansen in LA there was insufficient inert to tube overlap, so I made nioce new cr/mo tubes and they are all happy as pigs in the mud now.

We could almost certainly to the same for you and it costs a shit ton les than buying all new stuff.

In the rear, that's kinda a problem salvaging much if the things are those way skinny soda-straw shocks I've seen on too many Golves.
Need something heftier and valve correctly and some means to set the car up reliably and those damn circlips are not reliable, nor do the give you much choice.

Anywho give a call sometime between 0900 and 8 PM PACIFIC Time, I talk faster than I type so that's the preferred method.

Also: When is the next event youse stinking of doin?

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

John-
Thanks for jumping in, someone at NEFR told me I should get in touch with you on this. I had been planning on getting the car together for WV but sounds like that's canceled. The next stage event would be Black River (Sept) but there are a couple of Hillclimbs in the mean time that would be good to run (don't really need the clearance for those though).

The rears seem okay though everything has room for improvement. I think the gear and setup are as Townsend left 'em but there is a bit more weight up front now.

I looked a bit more at the Demon Rally site and the setup looks very similar to what they were running. The front certainly isn't as stiff as it should be, I can bounce it a bit with one foot on the bumper and definitely can't handle the granite boulders sticking 8 inches out of the ground up here (as I found out the hard way).

I know what you mean about typing.

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www.DMackTyresUSA.com

You know thing thing Tom said that really highlighted the inadequacy of the stuff everybody initially gets, and what he had, is when he said just braking used up nearly all the travel.
Then you hit a bump!
yeow!

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Ya, I got shit for travel, the control arms are parallel at rest and it takes nearly nothing to bottom them. There were 6 Golf II's at NEFR and of the 2 that DNF'd neither were suspension related but all of them that I checked out had at least two inches of clearance on me and were stiffer than hell (especially the O'neil car that Beavis and Block were running).

I'm away from my shop, out of town for the week, what dimensions and specs should I get for you when I get back in town next week? I haven't messed with suspension too much so I'm not clear on the nuances.

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www.DMackTyresUSA.com

How did the tranny mount hold up?

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rally gods would turn in their graves if they ever knew Lada's were now part of EU rallying!!!

Greasecar Wrote:
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> Ya, I got shit for travel, the control arms are
> parallel at rest and it takes nearly nothing to
> bottom them. There were 6 Golf II's at NEFR and
> of the 2 that DNF'd neither were suspension
> related but all of them that I checked out had at
> least two inches of clearance on me and were
> stiffer than hell (especially the O'neil car that
> Beavis and Block were running).
>
> I'm away from my shop, out of town for the week,
> what dimensions and specs should I get for you
> when I get back in town next week? I haven't
> messed with suspension too much so I'm not clear
> on the nuances.

That's OK, but if you're going to own a rally car you have to learn a few of the basics and the first is mounting and dismounting, the next is strip down and re-assembly.
And of course terminology.
Always hard to learn a new language and new concepts at the same time---done that 3 times!
Look at this piccie and you can see the components and see that there's a 17mm jam nut (M10 x 1) (not shown) at the bottom on the rod that secures the insert in the tube


On your VW there's a wacky round nut at the top of the thing that you need a thing like this: to spin off and that holds the upper spring seat and the spring on, BACK OFF the spring first.

Then spin off the jam nut I mentioned earlier, then with allen or slotted as the case may be, screw the rod back thru the tube bottom and slide apart.

The re-read my first note now that you have the photo to give you a clearer piccie.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

The tranny mount that Chris welded up held but the rear tranny mount below and behind the engine was bent from impact and the engine mount on the belt side is completely blown out.

currently I'm not running coil overs or inverted inserts. I am familiar with the basic parts from doing service on standard assemblies but have a lot to learn about how to dial them in and choose the right elements and weights.

I think it's time to start from scratch on my suspension.

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www.DMackTyresUSA.com

That's actually the first rally car Pete Van Bogart (Cascade Autosport) built and campaigned. Originally running a turbo motor. The thing with Rabbits is if you jack them up too tall they handle like crap and get too much body roll and tip over too easy. Probably you just need stiffer suspension than you have now, I wouldn't really raise it. Tom Buress' car was lower than that and I don't think there was ever anyone faster in a Rabbit.

Greasecar Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The tranny mount that Chris welded up held but the
> rear tranny mount below and behind the engine was
> bent from impact and the engine mount on the belt
> side is completely blown out.
>
> currently I'm not running coil overs or inverted
> inserts. I am familiar with the basic parts from
> doing service on standard assemblies but have a
> lot to learn about how to dial them in and choose
> the right elements and weights.
>
> I think it's time to start from scratch on my
> suspension.

Not necessarily.
The inserts can very likely be saved.
And save you several hundred bucks.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.