FIA scruitinized 2 box fuel cell without barrier???!!!

"That was from WRC Finland. You can even see the Neste Rally Finland decals on the car."

Before the guy got thrown out of tech!

---

Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

> Before the guy got thrown out of tech!

Thrown out of tech for illegal sticker placement, as it turns out.

seanmc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > > Before the guy got thrown out of tech!
>
> Thrown out of tech for illegal sticker placement,
> as it turns out.
>

Damn you could see the driver's name wasn't in Helvetic BOLD???

Those bastards!
trying to slip an incorrect font thru, no wonder they got booted.
>
>
>

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

totally current setup with a current scrutineering sticker just behind the driver's door for Rally Finland.

I watched and have video of the car competing in the event itself

---

-Tom
DemonRallyTeam | Fine Tuning | CTS Turbo & RP Turbos | RalleyTuned | JRM | Meister Autowerks
Spitfire EFI | Product Apparel | JVAB Imports | NLS | AP Tuning | USRT

Add us on Facebook | Next Event: 2013 Olympus Rally June 22-23 Olympia, WA



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/17/2009 06:32PM by Tom B.

Tom B Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> totally current setup with a current scrutineering
> sticker just behind the driver's door for Rally
> Finland.
>
> I watched and have video of the car competing in
> the event itself'

Yes but did they burst into flames and shower you with flaming blobs of molten metal and napalm like rubber and roasted bits of what smelled like BBQed pork, at which times you burst into flames_

Last time I looked at a car like that it happened to me.

I know!
It's Finland! The scrutiners were all totally shitfaced on Koskenkorva!!!

That must be it!!!
>
> __________________________________________________
> _________
> Demon Rally Team :: Fine Tuning
> RalleyTuned | Meister Gauge Faces | Spitfire EFI |
> Product Apparel
> JVAB Imports | Techtonics Tuning | 034 Motorsport
> | Les Schwab
>
> Myspace or Facebook
>
> Next Event: Wild West Rally Sept. 26-27th 2009
>
>
>
>
>
> Edited 1 times. Last edit at Sep 17, 2009 by Tom
> B.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

they did DNF (withdrew).....not sure if it was a fuel cell related incident....

I love pork.....mmmm bacon

---

-Tom
DemonRallyTeam | Fine Tuning | CTS Turbo & RP Turbos | RalleyTuned | JRM | Meister Autowerks
Spitfire EFI | Product Apparel | JVAB Imports | NLS | AP Tuning | USRT

Add us on Facebook | Next Event: 2013 Olympus Rally June 22-23 Olympia, WA

Whats koskenkorva?

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

Dazed_Driver Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Whats koskenkorva?

Koskenkorvan Viina's nicknames

* Apinajuoma
* Hollolan plöö
* Hyttysmyrkky
* Koffu
* Korvalehti
* Korvalääke
* Korvatipat
* Kosaani
* Kosamiini
* Kosamiitti
* Kosanderi
* Kosenovitch
* Koshnitsha
* Kosikka
* Koskematon korvalääke
* Kosken Jorma
* Kosken korvalääke
* Koskenkuohu
* Koskenlaskija
* Koskikalja



* Koskinen
* Koskis
* Koskisen korvatipat
* Koskisen korvavesi
* Koskisen kovalääke
* Koskisen kurlausvesi
* Kosmonautti
* Koso
* Kosovo
* Kosperiini
* Kossu
* Kosu
* Kosukka
* Kosumentti
* Kova-Koskinen
* Kuiva valkoviini
* Latoviina
* Vakoviski
>
> Feisty Peacock?
>
> My noodle I doodled was ate by a poodle

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

So its like a lower proof vodka type alcohol?

Wiki said it was commonly called vodka, but its not called that in Finland, and it's a lower percent of alcohol.

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

First of all, let me come to Mike's defense a little bit. He doesn't make the RA
rules, he just enforces them. Local scrutineers interpret things as best they can,
but his interpretation is the final one if any questions come up. Secondly, it's
not just RA. The bulkhead rule is also in the NASA and the CARS rules.

Now, let me put my librarian hat on. First, lets go to FIA Article J, Appendix 253,
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/44E8DE1D997420E9C12575DF005377E7/$FILE/253%20_09-10_.pdf which is the FIA's general car prep rules. In there, section 14 says

"Whenever a competitor uses a safety fuel tank, it must come from
a manufacturer approved by the FIA.
In order to obtain the FIA's agreement, a manufacturer must have
proved the constant quality of its product and its compliance with
the specifications approved by the FIA."

There's more, but the rest of the section mostly covers bag ageing (five years
max) and the filler neck.

So I went and looked up the FIA specs on fuel tanks. They're here:
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/D1451104A41C1994C1257604004459F8/$FILE/FT3-1999_Safety_tank.pdf,
and if you dig into them, you'll find that they only discuss the bladder itself,
and nothing about the box for it.

Ok, well, we specifically want the use in rally cars, which are touring cars, so
maybe it's in that section. That's back in Appendix J. I looked at article 255
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/2589A7BA2955E0A2C12574FF0051D9F4/$FILE/255%20(2009)-15112008.pdf,
which covers Group A. Section 5.9 has a lot on fuel tanks. Some interesting tidbits:

* The tank has to be in either the original location or in the luggage compartment.
* The original location can only be modified for cars which have the original
tank in the cockpit, in which case it is permissible to to install a
protective device between the tank and the occupants.

Hm, doesn't appear to be required. Wait a minute...scrolling farther, we get
to section 6.7.2.1, which states:

"Should the fuel tank be installed in the boot and the
rear seats removed, a fireproof and liquid-proof bulkhead must
separate the cockpit from the fuel tank.
In the case of twin-volume cars it will be possible to use a nonstructural
partition wall in transparent, non-flammable plastic
between the cockpit and the tank arrangement."


Onoz. It IS required for Group A. What about Group N? That's covered in
article 254 http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/2D67A4879209E88CC12575E0002EF475/$FILE/254%20_09-10_.pdf. Section 6.9 is
very similar to the Group A rules, but also has the following caveat:

"For twin-volume cars homologated from 01.01.98 with a fuel tank
installed in the luggage compartment, a fireproof and liquid-proof
case must surround the fuel tank and its filler holes.
For three-volume cars homologated from 01.01.98, a fireproof and
liquid-proof bulkhead must separate the cockpit from the fuel tank.
Nevertheless, it is recommended that this liquid-proof bulkhead be
replaced by a liquid-proof case as for twin-volume cars."

I looked at a couple of other specifications. Group B states that the Group A
rules must be followed with a couple of exceptions, so yeah, it's required there
too. GT an GT2 have the simple statement:

"Fuel tanks must be placed in their original location (see
Homologation form) or in the luggage compartment (outside the
cockpit).
They must be separated from the cockpit and the engine compartment by
a firewall."

I didn't look at any of the other specs, and I don't happen to have the Finnish
rules or Supp Regs, but from a strict FIA standpoint, that car was not legal
according to current rules. It might have been grandfathered in though.

-michel

---

Self-righteous douche canoe

My guess: For a fuel CELL - what is considered the actual tank, and what is considered "case"?

At least here in Denmark, it has been common in for example Escort Mk II's, to move the tank from it's f'ed up location in the right rearmost corner, to between the wheel wells.
Incidentially a tank from an Opel Ascona fits rather well for this.
This is perfectly legal, but a firewall must be installed either way.

Using a fuel cell - the firewall is not required.

My guess is that it is interpreted in the way that a fuel cell - being a bladder, foam and so on, is the tank itself, and the box it all is in, is the firewall.

Whereas if you're using a stock style tank - plastic or metal, then you lack the second layer.

I'm not a scrutineer - but the Polo shown on the pictures has a configuration that is common in Denmark as well.
For example I have seen it on a Peugeot 205 Grp. A.

---

Brgrds
Brian

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> >
> Yes but did they burst into flames and shower you
> with flaming blobs of molten metal and napalm like
> rubber and roasted bits of what smelled like BBQed
> pork, at which times you burst into flames_
>
>

hoche Wrote:

<blah blah blah - not quoting so it doesn't fill up the screen


Michel, no one is questioning having a fireproof bulk head. The main issue is not counting the fuel cell container as a bulk head. You have the bladder, then a metal case. Then Hurst makes you put another metal case to enclose the existing metal case that covers the bladder. Oh and the fuel cell filler and tube needs to be completely enclosed in another metal case. All metal cases need to have a method of expelling any spilled fuel/vented.

And here comes the part that most people are pissed about - there are no examples or guidelines presented on how this can be achieved. It's a guess and hope you get it right and that you can pass or try to draw something up and get his approval

---

-Jason



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/18/2009 10:43AM by mack73.

Doivi Clarkinen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> john vanlandingham Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > >
> > Yes but did they burst into flames and shower
> you
> > with flaming blobs of molten metal and napalm
> like
> > rubber and roasted bits of what smelled like
> BBQed
> > pork, at which times you burst into flames_
> >
> >
>
>
>[www.youtube.com]

Yes, perfect.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

mack73 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> hoche Wrote:
>
> <blah blah blah - not quoting so it doesn't
> fill up the screen
>
>
> Michael, no one is questioning having a fireproof
> bulk head. The main issue is not counting the fuel
> cell container as a bulk head. You have the
> bladder, then a metal case. Then Hurst makes you
> put another metal case to enclose the existing
> metal case that covers the bladder. Oh and the
> fuel cell filler and tube needs to be completely
> enclosed in another metal case. All metal cases
> need to have a method of expelling any spilled
> fuel/vented.
>
> And here comes the part that most people are
> pissed about - there are no examples or guidelines
> presented on how this can be achieved. It's a
> guess and hope you get it right and that you can
> pass or try to draw something up and get his
> approval
>
> 94 Golf
> www.Mack73.com
>
>
>
> Edited 2 times. Last edit at Sep 18, 2009 by
> mack73.


Not exactly accurate. The problem is not the container. RA does allow that to be a bulkhead. The problem becomes the fill. That is not covered by a bulkhead or the case. There is no way to interpret the language of 253 to say the lid above a container is covered by the container. Everybody understand what I am trying to say? The rule is specific that the cell,the whole cell be sepreated by a bulkhead and that has to include the fill. I can't help what happens in other countries, they don't all have our wonderful court system. The price to be free is sometimes freedom itself.

RA nor CARS or NRS is going to design individual systems. Timm has a way figured out to use AQ for a fill neck that I think is ok. Or put a box over the top of the tank and cover the fill area. A bulkhead has to seperate the whole fuel cell from the passenger compartment and that includes the fill area. You can't have an installation where a clumsy crew member or a misfit lid allows fuel to be spilled into the passenger compartment. You can't have an installation where the fill hose can be ripped off with a side hit into a tree.

If "we" say that design X is approved then someone comes along and says "I want the fill over here" or "That won't fit a Fiat 500" and so on. FIA 253 allows the whole rear of the cage to be open now. 2 rear supports are all that is required, no rear diagonals. Lots of fuel cell/bulkhead room.

There was a racer burned to death a few years ago here when his car was hit in the back and the fuel cell exploded. That was fuel cell, firesuit and emergency aid standing a few feet away. It can happen no matter what.

The same mentality that wants to blame RA or Hurst or anyone else for rallies problems is the same mentality that will show up in court when something goes wrong. We DO live in a litigous society.

Honestly, how many hours, days, months have been spent designing struts, axle adapters, quick steering racks, diff carriers, trans adapters, caliper brackets to make Volvos or Merkurs into usable cars ? Yet this same brain trust can't figure out a way to cover a fuel cell?

I called the nice folks at ATL a couple years ago and was told their set-up was not considered a fire proof bulkhead. If they don't consider it as such how can we?

It's not hard to box a cell in or make a bulkhead in the spare tire area. A bit of sheet metal, some rivets and sealer. The problem becomes when someone wants to move it to the back seat or run an outside fill. Just as there is not one common gas tank, radiator or even headlight anymore there is not one configuration of a fuel cell that will fit all needs (or wants).


With the recent re-introduction of the hatchback into current production maybe we'll see ATL or Firesafe show some interest in designing a true self contained fuel cell that meets FIA requirements, which are actually quite clear. I'm not going into court and testify that I actually thought that flimsy drier hose was going to stop a fuel spill or fire.
Drier hose would never hold up long enough for a case to get to jury....

Michel and I are on the rules committee for NRS and we talk with Hurst frequently. If someone actually has or is building a car ( that will see stages before internal combustion engines are outlawed) we will try to help. Stop and really think about what you are trying to do, where is the gas going if it is spilled or the car wrecked. You have to try and design around worst case scenario.