FIA scruitinized 2 box fuel cell without barrier???!!!

The real unfortunate side effect of the North American interpretation is that it leaves alot of cars keeping, or in many cases here in Colorado, reverting back to stock tanks.
Gas tanks from the 80s can rust through and most are NLA parts so ebay and the junkyard are your sources. On the Merkur the tank occupies that huge area behind the rear diff that leads to all that overhang. You know, right in a great location for when you clip the back into a wall, bridge, or tree.

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Grant Hughes

NoCoast Wrote:
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> The real unfortunate side effect of the North
> American interpretation is that it leaves alot of
> cars keeping, or in many cases here in Colorado,
> reverting back to stock tanks.
> Gas tanks from the 80s can rust through and most
> are NLA parts so ebay and the junkyard are your
> sources. On the Merkur the tank occupies that
> huge area behind the rear diff that leads to all
> that overhang. You know, right in a great
> location for when you clip the back into a wall,
> bridge, or tree.

I can think of at least three vehicles (one 2-box, two 3-box) made in recent times where there is not a liquid proof bulkhead between the fuel tank/filler and the driver's compartment, in stock form.

But at least fingers can be pointed at somebody with deep pockets!

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Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.

Gene, 2 points.
First, the "gawddamn Fuelsafe tank/cell/Red can thang" I have sold to several people are marked rather clearly "FIA FT3 Approved".

2nd, some of use who can read that FIA FT3 approved text, and who happen read/see/visit other countries and actually see/know that there PILES of installations just like we have traditionally seen---do not appreciated being told we are misinformed and to that "these are FIA rules...." blah blah

When we KNOW that is utter and complete nonsense.

I agree I have seen some sketchy cell install situations and I repeat I'm not loose with gasoline and fire---since I have been burned badly enough to nearly loose my leg and spent a MONTH in intensive burn ward.

BUt all this YEARS of ridiculing and hard ass feelings and BS about dangers of fires
and the UNIQUE interpertation of the fill thing

IN THE CONTEXT OF NO REQUIREMENT FOR ON BOARD FIRE SUPPRESSION 18 years after "every major sactioning body" in the civilised world required them kinda makes one wonder what the hell the priorities are.

Much like the fire suit requirement when there was not inforcement of fireproof bulk head.

One thing I'm saying is don't stand there and tell me a pile of steaming shit about what the rest of the world is doing, when I know that's BS, to justify your rules[/u], just tell me "we've decided to do this cause we want to" and try and restrain from implying 'neener neener'.

Exactly the same thing with the HANS BS, claims "Every!!! major sactioning body WORLDWIDE requires...."

When the was and was proven to be completely false.

I've always said, say what you want, but if you give a bunch of rationalisations as to why, then don't be surprised if people point out the flaws in the rationalisations.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

My 2 cents:

The R.A rule book could be more clear on this subject (Alan). The fill plate, fuel lines and filler hose need to be "aircraft grade" stainless steel wire braid hose or be separated from the passenger compartment by a liquid and fire proof barrier. The problem is the definition of "liquid and fire proof". When I asked Hurst about this he was not helpful. I understand that he is a busy guy and is probable tired of dealing with this issue but that is his job. I was not able to get a detailed answer about what is considered "liquid and fire proof". I proposed using a flexible stainless steel conduit type product that had a 1600F working temp and was rated liquid proof buy the manufacturer. This was dismissed out of hand with the comment "paper ignites at 450F". Mike did send me a photo of a Porsche GT3 that had a carbon fiber cover over the fuel cell and filler hose.

Trying to argue that what works in Europe should be ok here is pointless because the legal environments are very different. It is not an engineering problem it's a legal issue.

From a technical standpoint I don't think that there is a good argument against a USCG fire proof fuel hose being used as a filler. Good connections, a flap valve in the cell and proper fill cap location would be needed. I myself would prefer a flexible connection between the cell and filler cap in the event of a serious wreck. By the way I am speaking about hatch back type cars here.

Having said all this we need to understand that the problem becomes a political issue. We need to lobby to have the rules changed.

Thanks Michel for posting the FIA quotes!

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Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/18/2009 02:34PM by Rallymech.

Helmet protector protector!!!
Cover the 18 gallon cell in an 18 gallon steel box with another 22 gallon box!

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Grant Hughes

heymagic Wrote:
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> Honestly, how many hours, days, months have been
> spent designing struts, axle adapters, quick
> steering racks, diff carriers, trans adapters,
> caliper brackets to make Volvos or Merkurs into
> usable cars ? Yet this same brain trust can't
> figure out a way to cover a fuel cell?

This. I mean come on, it's not really that difficult. You can argue all you want what's allowed in other countries but it doesn't matter. They want a box in a box here. So make another box.

Rallymech Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Mike
> did send me a photo of a Porsche GT3 that had a
> carbon fiber cover over the fuel cell and filler
> hose.
>

Interesting, since carbon fiber is quite flammable. Not the carbon fiber itself, but the epoxy resin that the carbon fiber is serving to reinforce. It's also electrically conductive, btw.

Dave,

Exactly.

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Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

Well, you can get fire-resistant epoxy resin, but it's spendy, and I have no idea how a scrutineer would check it.

"Well, I held the MAPP torch up to it and the rest of the car ignited and melted
to the ground but the bulkhead held up so you pass. Here's your logbook."


Anyway, what I'm getting out of this is that we need to get some sort of clarification written as to exactly what the liquid and fireproof barrier may
be, and get it put into the rulebook or posted as a supp or something - both
for NASA and RA.

Oh, and that John is perfectly ok with any ol' lameass rule as long as it's followed by "cuz we want to" and "neener neener".

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Self-righteous douche canoe

Does anyone else find it funny that the FIA's server is named "argent"?

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Self-righteous douche canoe



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/18/2009 09:12PM by hoche.

hoche Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Does anyone else find it funny that the FIA's
> server is named "argent"?
>

What's the joke? we all know what it means, what's the punch line?
They want all the"argent"?
>
>
> Edited 1 times. Last edit at Sep 18, 2009 by
> hoche.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Oh...that hadn't occurred to me. I just figured they were all fans of an
early-70s rock band.

---

Self-righteous douche canoe

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> IN THE CONTEXT OF NO REQUIREMENT FOR ON BOARD FIRE
> SUPPRESSION 18 years after "every major sactioning
> body" in the civilised world required them kinda
> makes one wonder what the hell the priorities
> are.

WHAT?!?
You don't have to have extinguishers of some sort in ya cars?!?
Sjeees...

Even for the cone-squishing stuff that I do over here, I have to have at least one extinguisher with 2 kg. of powder in it. They are vigurously (sp) checked at scrutineering.

This is even though that stuff I drive, has no more than 3500 meters pr. stage, often we drive a couple of times around something, and officials on the stage has to be equipped with extinguishers.
This means that there no way in hell that an extinguisher can be more than 700-800 meters away, and it's more like a few hundred.

"Real" rally cars (for the national events) have to be equipped with 10 kg. of powder, that can be activated both from inside and outside.

And you're telling me that you're fooling around in your forests, miles away from anybody, without fire suppression in the cars?
MAAAN....

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Brgrds
Brian

wildert Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> john vanlandingham Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > IN THE CONTEXT OF NO REQUIREMENT FOR ON BOARD
> FIRE
> > SUPPRESSION 18 years after "every major
> sactioning
> > body" in the civilised world required them
> kinda
> > makes one wonder what the hell the
> priorities
> > are.
>
> WHAT?!?
> You don't have to have extinguishers of some sort
> in ya cars?!?
> Sjeees...
>
> Even for the cone-squishing stuff that I do over
> here, I have to have at least one extinguisher
> with 2 kg. of powder in it. They are vigurously
> (sp) checked at scrutineering.
>
> This is even though that stuff I drive, has no
> more than 3500 meters pr. stage, often we drive a
> couple of times around something, and officials on
> the stage has to be equipped with extinguishers.
> This means that there no way in hell that an
> extinguisher can be more than 700-800 meters away,
> and it's more like a few hundred.
>
> "Real" rally cars (for the national events) have
> to be equipped with 10 kg. of powder, that can be
> activated both from inside and outside.
>
> And you're telling me that you're fooling around
> in your forests, miles away from anybody, without
> fire suppression in the cars?
> MAAAN....
>
> Brgrds
> Brian
>
>


We have to have fire extinguishers (2 hand held types with some minimum size are required.) However, plumbed in on board fire systems are not required (but they are optional and recommended) like they are in FIA. I don't know why. I have both hand held and plumbed in systems in my car.

Yeah, John is referring to plumbed in systems not being required, not extinguishers in general.

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Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.