FIA scruitinized 2 box fuel cell without barrier???!!!

Ah - ok - now I'm more calm :-).

For some of the "mid range" stuff, we can get away with two extinguishers as well.

But I think that plumbed in systems are required for the nationals.

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Brgrds
Brian

Just got back from 3 days away in the Winnibago. No interent, sadly I actually miss you guys a bit...


JVL, yes the red box says FIA approved but there is a big difference between an approved box sitting on a store shelf and a box sitting in the wheel well of a car. The FIA approved does not blindly cover installation. Just like a homolgated cage has to be installed 'just so'. Seats and belts have to be installed 'just so' also. Approved helmets have to be worn and so on. Someone has to recognize there is a huge difference between a product and installation of a product. I don't care what language you read in the literal wording of 253 says the fuel cell must be seperated from the passenger compartment by a bulkhead. Counting the cell as a bulkhead is one thing, allowing the fill to remain uncovered in the passenger compartment is another. Same as putting on a pair of pants and walking around with your dingus hanging out.

So basically this has been beat to death. If you want to race under Euro interpretations...head for Expedia. Again, we will make efforts to help anyone actually building a car and trying to install a fuel cell, but John...while I truly admire your engineering skills and abilities, you don't have a dog in this fight so why should RA or NRS listen much to your protestations?

heymagic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just got back from 3 days away in the Winnibago.
> No interent, sadly I actually miss you guys a
> bit...
>
>
> JVL, yes the red box says FIA approved but there
> is a big difference between an approved box
> sitting on a store shelf and a box sitting in the
> wheel well of a car. The FIA approved does not
> blindly cover installation. Just like a homolgated
> cage has to be installed 'just so'. Seats and
> belts have to be installed 'just so' also.
> Approved helmets have to be worn and so on.
> Someone has to recognize there is a huge
> difference between a product and installation of a
> product. I don't care what language you read in
> the literal wording of 253 says the fuel cell must
> be seperated from the passenger compartment by a
> bulkhead. Counting the cell as a bulkhead is one
> thing, allowing the fill to remain uncovered in
> the passenger compartment is another. Same as
> putting on a pair of pants and walking around with
> your dingus hanging out.
>
> So basically this has been beat to death. If you
> want to race under Euro interpretations...head for
> Expedia. Again, we will make efforts to help
> anyone actually building a car and trying to
> install a fuel cell, but John...while I truly
> admire your engineering skills and abilities, you
> don't have a dog in this fight so why should RA or
> NRS listen much to your protestations?


Gene I only wear Levi 501 with BUTTON FLY after some traumatic embarassing 'mishaps' many years ago. Thus if I don't button therm up properly my britches will fall off. So been a long time since my dingus was stuck hanging out.

As for not having a dog in the fight, I've said I've sold fuel cells to 5-6 guys and I feel some responsibility to help them---regardless of their choices to finish cars or not.

AND, I can think of 3 more guys been in varoous stages of prep from the nice guy Sean with the black Xratty at the log book party to "Frumby" with a Xratty roller ready to get caged to the newbie guy moving up from Mississippi to Idaho who is wanting to git goiing. None of them want to do the Ford Pinto thing with the tank hanging out just behind the lame ass bumper.

But! my continuing point is not the specifics of the cell rule but the specifics of how the rule was announced, defended and the extremely unprofessional and vindictive reactions from "the highest levels" towards those that questioned the expalnations.... which now we are presented with evidence that is less than a month old that the interpertations---and accusations was wrong

You've raised kids Gene, sometime the only answer is "DO IT!" and that's it.
If you get all softy and tell little Igor "Igor you have to go to bed NOW cause if you don't a fawkin HUUUUUUUUUGE boogie man is going to rip your fawkin arm off---see it says so right HERE"

well it might work till the bugger can read---or as we've done: CALL on the PHONE and ask for written clarification.
Then you'll have a never ending problem with Igor cause you made shit up, he didn't have his arm torn off by a HUUUUUGE boogie man, and he knows it.
Hard earned credibility is lost.

I've said and will repeat: "they" want a cover over the filler, fine.

Don't make shit up (not you, you know who), ridicule and attempt to ostracize those who pick apart your transparent excuses--which as we see in the photograph, were, just as the photos presented when this first came about---are current.

On a side note, for 20 years I have suggested that each new rules proposal should have a short blub explaining the particular issue the rule is intended to address--and a name attached who is shepherding or pushing the rule.
I've said this little blub could quell a lot if the endless dissent and also maybe give those in the business of making up rules a way to save face if the rule has unintended consequence.
Ex: "Due to the alarming numbers of Harnesses disintergrating into pixie dust within hours of the date stamp expiring it is proposed that all stages be run at night and stakes and mallets be carried to drive thru the heart of....."

We the past and probably future participants, or advisors to the noobs, could point out that the sharpened stakes and mallets if for killing vampires and won't address the problem of belts allegedly turning to dust..

The ASN's representatives could then respond "Oooops sorry, got all the disintegrating when touched by the sun stuff all mixed up, [Church Lady Voice on] NEVER MIND [/Church Lady Voice off]

After a fun talk with one of our rally organisers last night, I heard "they' have started with the little blurb thing.
Good.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
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is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Ok, now we have a conversation. I wish there was an easy solution. I was hoping the pics from Europe would show something neat we hadn't thought of. Sadly that wasn't the case. I'm not sure how you can read the words "covered by a bulkhead" and not apply to the whole installation.

I wouldn't allow that pictured install for a NRS logbook either. I do agree with the interpretation of the 253 fuel cell. I don't just blindly agree with all of RAs or NRS policies, and neither group asks that I do. RA has moved to center a bunch after the first couple years and their policies have changed a bit. I do have to abide by their decisions and policies.

RA has been explaining their rules for a bit now. I don't know if that was at your request specifically. They/we do listen to all suggestions. All suggestions do not make sense for the competitors, organizers and sanctioning bodies however. Someone will always feel strongly to the opposite. My favorite has been the people who just have to, gotta, nothing else will do, rally a turbo awd car and wouldn't even take the time to ask for an exception.

I really think the ATL people should develope a fuel cell "module" that comes certified, easy to install and works ok for 80% of the applications.

The thing I don't get is how the fill could in theory be 6 inches above the regular fill in a seperate box.
Mike Hurst has said that the box from the manufacturer can be modified to be legal and count as the bulkhead. Think it's a 'liquid proof' modification that makes that happen.
My plan was to stick it between strut towers, pumps and filter behind it in an additional box, maybe even a small fuel cell box without cell since there'd already be fittings in and out for fuel in and out and vent. The filler I am not sure how I am going to deal with as I'd rather fill it from right there rather than run a hose somewhere, but I'll figure something legal out when the time comes.

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Grant Hughes

Rally America 2009 rules.

5.7. FUEL CONTAINERS
A. No fuel other than that carried in the OE fuel tank or FIA FT-3 or higher
fuel cell bladder shall be carried in any vehicle.
For any fuel cell located inside the car (e.g., the passenger compartment
or trunk), a fireproof and liquid-proof case must surround the fuel cell and
its filler. A fireproof and liquid-proof bulkhead may be used separate the
cockpit from the fuel cell in place of the fireproof and liquid-proof case.
The filler cap and filler pipe or hose is considered part of the fuel cell and
must also be separated from the cockpit by the case or bulkhead.
Original equipment fuel tank must only be used in their OE positions, and
must be separated from the cockpit by the floorpan or a metal bulkhead.
All fuel tanks must be securely mounted to the primary structure of the
vehicle. Any fuel tank or cell exposed on the bottom of the vehicle shall
be equipped with a stone shield designed to prevent puncture or damage
from flying stones and road debris. FIA FT-3 or higher approved fuel
cells are recommended.
B. Capacity
1. There shall be no restriction on fuel capacity or dimensions of the
fuel tank or cell.
2. The fuel capacity of the vehicle shall be sufficient that the vehicle be
able to traverse a total of 90 miles with a maximum of 45 stage miles
within that number without fuel replenishment. If other fluids limit the
46
range of the vehicle, the capacity of those fluids shall also be
sufficient to traverse that same distance.
C. Fuel pumps and filters shall also be isolated from the driver/co-driver by
a metal bulkhead or the fuel cell case. Any nonstandard fuel line located
in the passenger compartment shall be made of metal or metal braided
construction, with self-sealing threads at all connections, or comply with
FIA Appendix J Article 253.3.

So... easiest way without dropping the cell like I did because NASA wont let you put the cell anywhere BUT the trunk in a coupe.... wtf mate?


Put the cell where ever you want. Safest place is inside the cage, and as low as you can get it (imo). Seal the red box up, OR fab your own, and just buy the cell. Seal the fill plate to the box, or your fabricated box. Use AN lines to fill/vent with and to run either in cabin to the engine, or down to the floor and then run whatever the hell you want UNDER the car, OUTSIDE.

Put your pumps inside the cell. OR build a little pump house for them to live in (another little box) and run bulkhead fittings or pass the AN line through with grommets... either way, they need to be separated too.

The goal is no more then 2 connections PER HOSE between bulkheads. So, a connection TO rear bulkhead, the length of hose, and then a connection to the front bulkhead. If you use a grommet on the firewall, you save lots of money in AN fittings AND it satisfies the requirement

This really isnt that hard to figure out. Whether you want to or not, these are the rules. They're not THAT hard to deal with, as by using the red box as the bulkhead it came with, you dont have to buy more material to fabricate a bulkhead.

I built my car to NASA specs, unfortunately, so I had to stick my cell in the trunk. I didnt want it a mile high from the ground as my car is a live rear axle, so I half sank it into the trunk floor. It's not the most glamorous way of doing it, but Its better then raising the weight of 15 gallons of fuel to one of the highest points inside the car. If I had a merkur or something with IRS, it wouldnt be a big deal to stick the cell on the floor in the trunk over the axle.

Eric did it first, I looked his over and said, I can do that without a fuel proby thing to fill with, and I did. John says im stupid, so If I can do it, you can too.

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

Grant, I don't quite understand your question. Old people I know..

If we allow the box to be sealed and vented that fixes most of the problem. The remaining issues would be the area between the box and the fill plate, on some cells this is just the bladder, and the fill tube. So if a 'box" is built over this area and covers the exposed bladder and the fill then all of the fuel cell is "seperated" by a bulkhead. This is actually pretty easy. It gets a bit toughter when the fill is wanted to be moved to the outside of the car. FIA also is pretty specific about outside fills. Seems like it cannot be located in a window and can't be raised or beyond the body. The pictured VW has a non-compliant fuel fill from that standpoint. It appears to protrude from the body.

Gene, but it is FIA scruitinized and competed in the rally....how'd they do that?

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-Tom
DemonRallyTeam | Fine Tuning | CTS Turbo & RP Turbos | RalleyTuned | JRM | Meister Autowerks
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Tom B Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Gene, but it is FIA scruitinized and competed in
> the rally....how'd they do that?
>
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>
Tom, I don't know that answer. Maybe there wasn't an actual FIA inspector looking at that car. Maybe they are just slack, maybe they told the guy fix that by next event, possibly his cousin was the organizer. I think the drier hose speaks volumes to the lack of scrutiny that car went thru. Be nice to know the answer tho, just for curiosities sake if nothing else.

So can the fill still be just right at the cell, just has to be protected by a bulkhead of some sort, or does it have to be outside the car?

---

Grant Hughes

NoCoast Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So can the fill still be just right at the cell,
> just has to be protected by a bulkhead of some
> sort, or does it have to be outside the car?
>
> Grant Hughes
> www.nocoastmotorsports.net
> Denver, CO

Grant, the fill can be at the cell. Just build a box of some sort that will contain a spill, needs to be vented/drained outside in ncase of a spill. Really not all that hard to do. It gets a bit more complicated when people try to add a remote fill. Although Timm figured out a decent way to do that also.

I actually have some really large AN lines from a Nascar car and was considering using that for a remote fill and just having a box with the fitting over the fill plate. But then you need fittings, for the box, the remote fill, etc. Price goes upwards quickly... My last rally car with a cell wasn't remote fill and I don't see that it is really all that needed. Can the two vent lines be T'd together?

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Grant Hughes

Which 2 vent lines? For the cell and for the box around it?

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Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

Yes. The cell and the box that covers the fill.

What is appropriate for creating the seal on the fuel cell box?

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Grant Hughes

I'm not sure if you could T them... I dont really see why not, unless the vent didnt have a roll over valve, because then fuel could leak from the cell, to the box, but then again, thats why the box is there, I suppose.

For the seal, cork, RTV, silicone, something like that would work. If you want to be super ghetto, I believe I was told that Aluminized foil tape would work for sealing the lid to the fill plate. However, there is enough room, and its not that hard, to just either extend, or create a new lid piece that bolts down ON TOP of the full plate (using all the little fill plate bolts) and just seal that.

Pretend its an oil pan. Pan, "gasket," Windage tray, if your engine has one, "gasket", block.

Just like that

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Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.