I'm pretty sure that I want my next rally car, whenever that is, to be a RWD, and I really love the 70's Datsun 260z cars. Do they make good rally cars? Reliability-wise?
I checked to make sure they have macpherson's all the way around, they weigh less only 2300 pounds, and put out decent (IMHO) hp/torque. But as far as reliability and parts go, what do you fella's think? This project is a long ways off, but I want to either promote or kill the idea depending.

---

Ben Hetland
1973 Volvo 142 project car (with some cone-smashing on dirt in it's future, however)

"No. Rally Racing is a back alley sport filled with jackals, headhunters and thugs!"
-Pops Racer (Speed Racer movie)

www.utahrallygroup.com

1fastben Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm pretty sure that I want my next rally car,
> whenever that is, to be a RWD, and I really love
> the 70's Datsun 260z cars. Do they make good rally
> cars? Reliability-wise?
> I checked to make sure they have macpherson's all
> the way around, they weigh less only 2300 pounds,
> and put out decent (IMHO) hp/torque. But as far as
> reliability and parts go, what do you fella's
> think? This project is a long ways off, but I want
> to either promote or kill the idea depending.
>
> "No. Rally Racing is a back alley sport filled
> with jackals, headhunters and thugs!"
> -Pops Racer (Speed Racer movie)
>
>
> www.utahrallygroup.com

They have straight 6's in those don't they? JVL won't like that I've seen a Jag V12 in a 240Z, so if you decide to do a motor swap you can likely fit what you want. You could set back a V6 or I4 fairly decently.

Shells are super common, fairly cheap, has a good aftermarket AFAIK, probably fairly tight with a cage, someone would likely sponsor it over a volvo or merkur all other things being equal.

---

Andrew M
Onterrible
30ish

hudson Wrote:
>
> Shells are super common, fairly cheap

Where.

---

Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.

Pete Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> hudson Wrote:
> >
> > Shells are super common, fairly cheap
>
> Where.

I'm assuming you mean the ACTUAL 260z MODEL, which is fairly rare.

But the body is essentially exactly the same as a 240z which is anything but rare or expensive. If you can buy any car that old here in the rust belt any day of the week for less than 10k on the road (and often much, much less). It's cheap and as common as they get.

Sure there are cheaper rally platforms. But, seriously if your considering burning mega bucks to run an event let alone build any car, the cost of the shell is insignificant in the extreme.

As long as the shell doesn't have a major design flaw for rally use and body parts are available, what's the problem?

Edit: I just noticed you're a fellow rust belt liver.. here's some ads for 240z's for under 5k within a 5 hour drive.

http://binghamton.craigslist.org/cto/1401063473.html ($700 bucks!)
http://akroncanton.craigslist.org/cto/1401450051.html
http://akroncanton.craigslist.org/cto/1401031896.html
http://detroit.craigslist.org/okl/cto/1396412745.html
http://columbus.craigslist.org/cto/1401567590.html

I could go on

---

Andrew M
Onterrible
30ish



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/02/2009 07:16PM by hudson.

Cramped, poorly balanced, nose heavy vile understeering pigs.
Just like any other "sports car" with similar cramped, poorly balanced, nose heavy, vile, understeering pig design.

Ben, bear in mind that when rtally went into the woods on loose surfaces, 50 bhp Saabs and Minis anihillated them, destroyed works 3 liter DOHC Austin Healys and Mercedes.
In fact Saab 850s two strokes killed works Mercedes on the Manaco GP circuit---kicked their German asses into a bloody pulb.

Build a Z car and have fun, but don't be bummed if it gets massacreeed to death by old warmed over Golves.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

To be more specific an actual 260Z is total shit. Get a 240 or 280. '72,73 are the best years for 240s. The 70s had some rear axle alignment issues. Motors are tough as nails. Electromotive (Datsun Comp) got up to 700hp on a stock bottom end 280 before it came apart. They ran them in the Safari in the old days. There are better cars to rally tho...

heymagic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To be more specific an actual 260Z is total shit.
> Get a 240 or 280. '72,73 are the best years for
> 240s. The 70s had some rear axle alignment issues.
> Motors are tough as nails. Electromotive (Datsun
> Comp) got up to 700hp on a stock bottom end 280
> before it came apart. They ran them in the Safari
> in the old days. There are better cars to rally
> tho...

The 260z was only sold for one year correct?

The main advantage the Z cars have to someone who has to race a datsun is that the shells are way more common than any datsun sedan in many (maybe all?) parts of north america.

Finding a 510 around here is like searching for hens teeth, but I regularly see Z cars in various states of repair.

One big issue I can see that hasn't been raised is the long hood which can't help visibility. But seriously, getting sponsorship on a done up 240z has to be easier than a lot of other more mundane looking cars.

---

Andrew M
Onterrible
30ish

I put a RB26DETT Skyline motor into a 240Z for a guy. Now that would make a seriously potent rally car! Link to pics: http://www.printroom.com/ViewAlbum.asp?shopperid=E58SWNMUPSNL8M77UQE1TQH6UD388W8E&userid=oppositelock&album_id=164247

But I think there are a lot better platforms out there.

You should be able to make whatever power you want (either from the I6 or from any number of available motors that shouldn't be too terribly difficult to swap (as far as motor swaps go)).

The biggest issue with rallying a S30/S130 is going to be chasis strength (they are some flexible cars) and suspension options.

Power, gearing, final drives, and rear differentials shouldn't be too difficult (tons of Nissan stuff that might just require a new drive shaft with custom ends).

If you're serious talk to Greg Healey (ghpcomp over on the vial specialstage) as he is actually running a S130 these days.

It won't be ideal but it should be completely capable of being a lot of fun!

JVLslittlebuddy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You should be able to make whatever power you want
> (either from the I6 or from any number of
> available motors that shouldn't be too terribly
> difficult to swap (as far as motor swaps go)).

Yeah, and you can even stay within the same manufacturer for that silly rule.

> The biggest issue with rallying a S30/S130 is
> going to be chasis strength (they are some
> flexible cars) and suspension options.

I honestly, don't understand why this matters at all. With the roll cages people are putting into cars these days, they are getting more and more like a spaceframed silhouette car. Tie everything in and reinforce the few pieces of unibody that actually get stressed now that you've got a massive cage and and the rest of the unibody is show. Or am I out to lunch here?

> Power, gearing, final drives, and rear
> differentials shouldn't be too difficult (tons of
> Nissan stuff that might just require a new drive
> shaft with custom ends).

I don't know enough about the datsun rear ends, but I think it shoudln't be a problem.

---

Andrew M
Onterrible
30ish

OK just to play along:
Motor: Scarp ther inline L series.
The long crank according to Nissan themselves should go max 25 hours of race revs.

Be smart and do what they themselves did and shove in the several hundred pounds lighter V6. Long crank and block squirm problem swapped for very short and rigid crank and a block with a full main girdle.

And the motor being shorter solves a lot of the stupid weight distribution problems, with the attendant piss poor handling on all but bone dry surfaces.

Shell:
Nothing can be done about the etremely cramped interna cabin problem.
You want the LOOK of a "sports car" you're stuck with the poor interior space and crappy outwards visibility.

Suspension:
Easy call 206 431 9696.
Make it easy on yourself and fit 240 SX front knuckles so you can use conventional struts with Ear type mounting like this:


Rather than the old school tubes welded into the knuckle stuff like this:


Obviously both can be done but only a fool would purposely saddle themselves with the old school style if there were any options.
With the Nissan there is the obvious options.

Brakes:
they are heavy cars, and a V6 powed one with an exhaust and short gearing would be quick so the nice 300ZX Sumitomo 4 piston calipers and fat vented discs should be high on the list.

Trans:
There are Nisssans with Borg Warner T5s. They have crap ratios for a boulevard cruiser but a good gearset with a 2.95 first---which allows you to still use 1st when you've shortened the axle to say 4.37, costs $380.
Cheap. You'd be crazy not to find a way to do that.

Diffs:
Any R180, R190, R200 will be strong enough, just gotta get some shorter gears since you don't need a 140 mph car. Don't want to go too short or 1st gear becomes a "load it on the trailer" granny low.
Some Nissan perv ought to be able to answer if pick up ratios will drop into IRS housings.

In General:


The V6 motor is the key to success in the sports car shell. A 3,0 24v ought to make enough torque from size alone, and enough zing from spec.

What do V6s go for these days? (it was 15 years since this V^ transplant I was advising on was done and then it was cheap for a 12v.)

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

>
>
> The V6 motor is the key to success in the sports
> car shell. A 3,0 24v ought to make enough torque
> from size alone, and enough zing from spec.
>
> What do V6s go for these days? (it was 15 years
> since this V^ transplant I was advising on was
> done and then it was cheap for a 12v.)
>
>
>
> John Vanlandingham
> Sleezattle, WA, USA
>
> Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
>
> www.jvab.f4.ca


Which V6 are you thinking of John?

VG30e from the 80s found in the Z31 and pathfinders? 160 hp stock but 180-215 managable with modest amounts of work.

VG30de (larger and heavier) from the 90s? Little bit more power stock, but can be a PITA to work on, especially in a S30/130 chasis.


Why not a KA24?


I would think VG30E.

But the KA24 responds decently well to boost and should still fit G5 regulations for displacement in addition to being a smaller and slightly lighter motor...

hudson Wrote:
> But the body is essentially exactly the same as a
> 240z which is anything but rare or expensive.

We have differing views on "expensive" then. That or I need to get a passport.

>If
> you can buy any car that old here in the rust belt
> any day of the week for less than 10k on the road
> (and often much, much less). It's cheap and as
> common as they get.

The last time I saw an S30/S130 besides the one in my friend's yard that he STOLE for $1500 as a rolling chassis was, well, last week. Perfect condition '83 never seen winter and the floors are rusted out.

Remember when I said he STOLE it? The floors are still solid. The floors are NEVER solid on an old Z.

Someone once told me the most important thing is to get a rust free shell because fixing rust is pointless. Rust free Z shells are not easy to find or cheap.

> Edit: I just noticed you're a fellow rust belt
> liver.. here's some ads for 240z's for under 5k
> within a 5 hour drive.

I was hunting with my friend when we were looking for his 240Z. Everything we found for under $2000 (in ~2002) had severe body rot. Might have looked fine until you started stabbing the underside with a screwdriver, usually not even then. My fave was the one with aluminum flashing pop-riveted to the quarters that was advertised as needing "a little body work". But that was a 260Z (not a 240) and he wanted only $1500, mainly on the strength that the engine ran 10 years ago and it came with a spare cylinder head...

For $5000 you can buy a ratty E36 BMW and have cash left over, if you felt like buying something weird and inline-six powered. Just sayin'.

---

Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.

Hah!!! I had one come in the shop a couple years ago with the whole right front inner structure and strut mount pop riveted to the tub. No welding involved.

What ever didn't rust from mutha nature rusted from the f'n battery.

Sad really. The little 620 pickups are just as bad.

Pete Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We have differing views on "expensive" then. That
> or I need to get a passport.

I get the whole free or near free shell thing, trust me I do. But, with the cost of a mid spec build and actually entering and competing in say 15 rallies, the cost of the shell versus total money spent is getting pretty close to 2/5ths of fuck all regardless (is it not?).

> Someone once told me the most important thing is
> to get a rust free shell because fixing rust is
> pointless. Rust free Z shells are not easy to
> find or cheap.

He's in Utah, which puts him if not right in the low rust zone pretty darn close. And yes fixing rust is wasted time, but floor work doesn't have to be pretty, does it?.

A couple points:

Any complete decent condition old car would have a lot of parts to part out.. the whole interior, trim pieces, etc which would recoup some of the cost. If you're ditching the drivetrain, that should make you some coin too.

An exciting/attention grabbing car would have an easier time getting sponsorship bucks. Hotted up rally Z car, or a volvo 240.. hmm, which do I want to put my name on?

---

Andrew M
Onterrible
30ish