Dogbox tranny?

Doivi Clarkinen Wrote:
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> Here's the deal. After a while the engagement
> dogs get rounded from banging into gear. When
> they get really bad they won't hold the gear and
> the tranny will pop out of gear when you let off
> the gas. How fast the dogs wear and how often you
> have to do a rebuild is directly related to how
> hard you are on the gearbox and how often you
> shift without lift, etc. A gearbox in the hands
> of Dave Hintz, for example, is going to last a lot
> longer than a gearbox in the hands of Pat Richard.
> (I say this having built and maintained the same
> dogbox for both of these guys.) Not saying that
> one is better than the other, just that Pat is
> looking to go as fast as possible and get the most
> out of his equipment at all costs. Dave is more
> sympathetic to his equipment and is looking to get
> it to last a while. Both are very skilled
> drivers, Dave is more conservative. Anyway, In
> the 4 or 5 years that Dave has run the Holinger
> dogbox I think we've only replaced 2 or 3 worn
> dogs. And even then it was mostly precautionary.
> Only once was a gear actually starting to pop out
> when lifting the throttle. The trouble with a
> dogbox is that to replace the dog you have to
> replace the whole gear so it can get pretty
> expensive. But unless you are an animal when
> shifting it doesn't really need to be done as
> often as a lot people seem to think.


Thx Dave...that's the real-life experience/advice I was looking for.


I knew about the replace dogs = replace gears....the 'conservative' level of frequency doesn't bother me. In fact, it would force me to learn to do all that stuff, which is something I've wanted to learn to do for a while.



Grant....I hear ya on the 6-speed, but the upfront costs are prohibitive.....not just the cost of the tranny, but axles, hubs, modification to the hubs for WRX brakes, shift linkages, DCCD, etc, etc.

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Jon Burke - KI6LSW
Blog: http://psgrallywrx.blogspot.com/

I love the dog box on my BMW Bike. I fan the clutch to keep from unsettling the bike in the turns when shifting.

Gear Ratios matter much more then engagement systems.

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In the long run reality always wins.

Andrew_Frick Wrote:
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> Since you are building a Focus I assume that you
> are looking at the Quaife Dog kit. Quaife also
> sells the same gear ratios in a kit that keeps the
> factory syncros in place. I think this is would
> be the better option for most of the Focus owners
> in the US. You get the close ratios without the
> maintenance of the dogs. The other advantage is
> that just the gears is cheaper depending on the
> exchange rate with GBP.
>
> Don't forget to add the $1,000 for the upgraded
> shift tower and $1,000 to get one of the alternate
> final drive ratios since 4.06:1 or whatever the
> kit comes with is not the best option. These
> costs hold for either the syncro or dog kits.

Burak at one point had the Quaife dogbox and had issues with it. The problem I believe was due to the factory plastic mount on the tranny. He did have a 5.10 or so FD however. The car felt and looked fast!

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rally gods would turn in their graves if they ever knew Lada's were now part of EU rallying!!!

Turoc,

I thought Burak was running the syncro version of the gear kit. They only plastic parts in the Ford transmission are in the shift tower mechanism which I believe is what broke on his trans at Sandblast a couple of years ago. Below are the gear ratios and FDs available from quaife. If Burak had a 5.1:1 then it was a custom made unit.

Andrew

Dogs:
1st gear: 2.462 or 2.643
2nd gear: 1.824
3rd gear: 1.400
4th gear: 1.182
5th gear: 1.040

Final drive: 3.625, 3.823, 4.062, 4.250, 4.600, 4.857

Syncro:
1st gear: 2.643
2nd gear: 1.824
3rd gear: 1.400
4th gear: 1.130
5th gear: 0.962

Final drive: 3.625, 3.823, 4.062, 4.250, 4.600, 4.857

Grrrr grrr5r all this talk and NOBODY posts prices?
Is price totally irrelevant to all youse wise guys?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

^^the used straight cut MRT dogbox I'm looking at is $4000 (only driven on the street, no competition)....I'm sure I can talk the guy down to $3500.

This is it:
http://www.mrtrally.com.au/performance/barking_box.htm

I still need to figure out the ratios....shorter than WRX gears, but I don't know much more short.

That's about the most I'd spend on a transmission upgrade. I've seen practically brand new PPG gearsets go for about the same price....only difference is straight cut or helical (usually w/stock 5th gear)...most are synchro, w/stock front/center diff....which blows my mind....why pay so much for an upgraded transmission and then keep the stock differentials? blech.

but hey, gotta love the BS street racer kids that think they need a straight cut gearbox, drive it for 2K miles....hate it, then 'need the cash' for an STI 6speed swap. suckers.

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Jon Burke - KI6LSW
Blog: http://psgrallywrx.blogspot.com/

INteresting...so here's the 'marketing pamphlet' on that transmission...

http://www.mrtrally.com.au/performance/docs/dog-box-perf-page.pdf


it lists the gears and dog rings separately....I can't tell, but have they developed a way to make the 2 separately, so when the dogs wear out, you can just replace the dog ring(s) and not the entire gear(s)?

kind of like a 2-piece rotor?

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Jon Burke - KI6LSW
Blog: http://psgrallywrx.blogspot.com/

I bet it's one of these.
Haha.
http://www.mrtrally.com.au/performance/docs/ALL-MRT-ratios-data.pdf

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Grant Hughes

thanks, genius :p


although, its probably a good assumption its the 'Set F/STI' ratios...which seem a little high to me.....34mph in 1st gear at redline.....150mph top speed....

the others seem much more close ratio, I'd definitely want to confirm what ratios they are before buying.

Edit: oh...that's w/4.40 final drive, so probably not the ratios.

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Jon Burke - KI6LSW
Blog: http://psgrallywrx.blogspot.com/



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2009 05:01PM by Jon Burke.

Typical top speed in real rally cars has been somewhere just over 40-43 mph.

Top speed even in GpB days was often 112-118 mph---from walking up and asking the mechanics in their own language and smoking a ciggie,* schmoozing, not "I read it on the Intra-webzerz".


*There is some advantages to having working in motorsport overseas.....

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Jon Burke Wrote:
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> INteresting...so here's the 'marketing pamphlet'
> on that transmission...
>
>
>
>
> it lists the gears and dog rings separately....I
> can't tell, but have they developed a way to make
> the 2 separately, so when the dogs wear out, you
> can just replace the dog ring(s) and not the
> entire gear(s)?
>
> kind of like a 2-piece rotor?

No. There are dogs on the gears as well as the sliders. When they refer to "dog rings" they mean the slider that actually changes the gear. There are still dogs machined into the gears. The MRT gearset is made by Modena. Don't be fooled by their warranty or their claims of "unbreakable", if they are even still claiming that. Even Dave Hintz has broken gear teeth on the Modena box he uses as a spare. The Modena gearset is not as good as say the Holinger but it is half the price. Pretty good bang for the buck, actually. But it uses the factory aluminum shift forks, which is a weakness. The Holinger comes with nice, beefy brass shift forks. The ratios are usually the STi-RA Ver.6 ratios. Dave Hintz's has the GroupN alternate homologation super short ratios from Ver.6.

In a Subaru....half of the battle is the diffs.

my tally for the year is this.

- 4.44 front ring/pinion, one full tooth sheared completely off the pinion gear.

- 4.44 Rear ring/pinion, pinion gear completely shredded of all teeth, blew the diff centre section about 1/2 to the left and cracked the side plate on the r160 diff.

- Sheared clean through rear half shaft....clean through the bar.

- completely stripped STI RA (wider) 3rd gear. Blew a hole in the side of the transmission case when it went

I weighted all the options, of buying all kinds of gearsets for the 5spd,

The problem i found is once you have a good gearset in the 5 spd, then the diffs become issues, and half shafts and transfer gears, etc.

Most of the gear sets you find are really made to use the 4.44 final drive in rally application (topping out in 5th at 210kph or so. The 4.44's have more smaller teeth, so they are weaker....but you want to run the 4.44's i ran the 4.11's for a rally and then ran out and bought a brand new 4.44 front set from Subaru...pricey.

The 6 spd uses larger everything, assuming you convert to the R180...which you should. The cost of the really pricey conversion axles is what you will pay for all the rear end swap parts, including brakes.

Stock STi 6 speed, comes with a front LSD (type depending on vintage), use the stock rear plated diff, and you are done.

For $4000 US you should be able to find yourself a "swap" kit. If they want more it's a NASIOC fan boi wanting too much money. I paid around that an CDN bucks for my "kit" minus the DCCD controller, but the cheap ones are like a couple hundred.

With the 6 spd, you should basically be able to put fluid in it and forget it...atleast i hope.

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Chris

Do It Sidewayz Wrote:
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> In a Subaru....half of the battle is the diffs.
>
> my tally for the year is this.
>
> - 4.44 front ring/pinion, one full tooth sheared
> completely off the pinion gear.

It's not the diffs that are a problem, it's the 4.44 R&P. Like you say it's weak. If you've only broken one then you are just getting started. You should see the collection of broken 4.44's I have. Even the Prodrive "strengthened" (just shot peened, actually) $750 R&P holds up no beeter than stock.


> Most of the gear sets you find are really made to
> use the 4.44 final drive in rally application
> (topping out in 5th at 210kph or so. The 4.44's
> have more smaller teeth, so they are weaker....but
> you want to run the 4.44's i ran the 4.11's for a
> rally and then ran out and bought a brand new 4.44
> front set from Subaru...pricey.
>

The 4.11 or 3.90 works fine for the fast roads most rallies use. Dave Hintz finally went back to the 3.90 because he was breaking so many 4.44's. No problems with the 3.90, works fine with the RA Ver.6 Group N ratios. If he needs something shorter he's got the Modena box with the super short raitios, which was really too short with the 4.44.


> The 6 spd uses larger everything, assuming you
> convert to the R180...which you should. The cost
> of the really pricey conversion axles is what you
> will pay for all the rear end swap parts,
> including brakes.

You should use the R180 with the 5speed, then you wouldn't be breaking rear axles. No need for conversion axles, just use all the standard R180 parts (diff, axles, knuckles, brakes.)

> >
> With the 6 spd, you should basically be able to
> put fluid in it and forget it...atleast i hope.
>
>

You can still break the 6 speed... Though it's much stronger than a stock 5speed (but not a good straight cut dog 5 speed.)

Andrew_Frick Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Turoc,
>
> I thought Burak was running the syncro version
> of the gear kit. They only plastic parts in the
> Ford transmission are in the shift tower mechanism
> which I believe is what broke on his trans at
> Sandblast a couple of years ago. Below are the
> gear ratios and FDs available from quaife. If
> Burak had a 5.1:1 then it was a custom made unit.
>
> Andrew
>
> Dogs:
> 1st gear: 2.462 or 2.643
> 2nd gear: 1.824
> 3rd gear: 1.400
> 4th gear: 1.182
> 5th gear: 1.040
>
> Final drive: 3.625, 3.823, 4.062, 4.250, 4.600,
> 4.857
>
> Syncro:
> 1st gear: 2.643
> 2nd gear: 1.824
> 3rd gear: 1.400
> 4th gear: 1.130
> 5th gear: 0.962
>
> Final drive: 3.625, 3.823, 4.062, 4.250, 4.600,
> 4.857
>

You may be right! He might not have had the 5.10 at sandblast yet but I know he had upgraded to it at one point. It was the plastic tower that failed on it as well. That was a dogbox however! I believe he stopped using it shortly after.

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rally gods would turn in their graves if they ever knew Lada's were now part of EU rallying!!!