Whats the point and pros and cons? Worth the time and money?

matt15fan Wrote:
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> Whats the point and pros and cons? Worth the time
> and money?


Not unless you have money to burn!

Dog box = the dogs bollocks.. will cost it too.

Noisy, expensive, requires more frequent rebuilds.. that's my understanding anyways.. oh, and you can shift faster.

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Andrew M
Onterrible
30ish

Find a friend who owns a modern sportbike, have him take you for a ride, pay close attention to how it shifts, ignore the fear of death.

Dogboxes eliminate the synchronizer rings that ride between gears and allow them to match speeds as you shift, instead, they used interlocking metal "dogs" that are actually lumps of metal that stick out from the side of the gears, when these dogs wear out you have to get them welded up, ground back into shape and have the gears heat-treated, or replace all the worn parts (read, everything but the case) every couple of rallies (depending on the shifting skill of the driver). They work really well, shift faster than a synchro box, allow you to shift without the clutch, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I want a dogbox and since I'm building a Mini, I could probably afford one, but I would have a tough time affording the second, third and fourth one...

t

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Pure mathematics is the enemy of every truly creative man -- Sir Alec

I'm really torn on this, as I'm currently taking to someone who has a suby MRT straight cut tranny dog box. (w/shorter ratios....better for rally)


there's a video out there from PPG and to hear them tell it, daily driving a dog box aint that bad and rebuilds aren't THAT frequent...but who knows.


I've driven a sport bike before....that thing was fast as hell and upshifting w/o using the clutch is fun as shit. Its learning to rev match into a corner and downshifting is what concerns me.


For me, its something I want to include in my overall stage rally experience.....not that I 'need' it...but WANT it, just to say that I've been there, experienced that. besides, my stock tranny can only take so much, and there's lots of good deals for uber built transmissions out there right now. The one I'm looking at is only $3500.

I wish someone around here local had one to try out.

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Jon Burke - KI6LSW
Blog: http://psgrallywrx.blogspot.com/

matt15fan Wrote:
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> Whats the point and pros and cons? Worth the time
> and money?

Matt, if we had 65-70 guys in each class and the difference in a shift of a close ratio synchro box (under a second) and Focus with a dox box (maybe 0,6 seconds with the stock plastic shifter base, maybe 0,5 sec with some insane expensive but rear metal base) was costing you places, then maybe there'd be reason to think about a dog box.
Note they're only noisy if they're straight cut. All dog boxes are not straight cut,
and all synchro boxes are not helical.

Far more important is getting a decently low--or short, final drive ratio...

Think of this. The gear spaecing, the ratios are done to make it easier to keep the motor "on the boil", or in other words to deal with the powerband.
The powerband depends on the cams chosen.

So without knowing the final spec of the motor we can't even answer if a close ratio box is warranted much less synchro-vs-dog.

So what's the spec of the motor? What compression and whats the cam event timing?

A Fucus is a heavy car and if you're normal aspirated I always say whatever the motor doesn't do to get you down the road, the gearing will.
So what are you thinking for a final drive?

What about brakes?
Suspension?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Jon Burke Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm really torn on this, as I'm currently taking
> to someone who has a suby MRT straight cut tranny
> dog box. (w/shorter ratios....better for rally)
>
>
> there's a video out there from PPG and to hear
> them tell it, daily driving a dog box aint that
> bad and rebuilds aren't THAT frequent...but who
> knows.
>
>
> I've driven a sport bike before....that thing was
> fast as hell and upshifting w/o using the clutch
> is fun as shit. Its learning to rev match into a
> corner and downshifting is what concerns me.
>
>
> For me, its something I want to include in my
> overall stage rally experience.....not that I
> 'need' it...but WANT it, just to say that I've
> been there, experienced that. besides, my stock
> tranny can only take so much, and there's lots of
> good deals for uber built transmissions out there
> right now. The one I'm looking at is only $3500.
>
> I wish someone around here local had one to try
> out.
>
> Jon Burke - KI6LSW
> Blog:
> 'Holy Shit!' @ 4:10


Shifting without the clutch is always slower than leaving the throttle FULL GAS, and fanning the clutch.
What the fuck Jon, you so limpwristed or had polio you can't wham that featherlight clutch?
FULL GAS dammit waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaWAooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Constant power delivery.
Don't argue.
I did make a good living on bikes.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

john vanlandingham Wrote:
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>
>
> Shifting without the clutch is always slower than
> leaving the throttle FULL GAS, and fanning the
> clutch.
> What the fuck Jon, you so limpwristed or had polio
> you can't wham that featherlight clutch?
> FULL GAS dammit
> waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaWAooooooooooooooooooooooooo
> Constant power delivery.
> Don't argue.
> I did make a good living on bikes.
>
> John Vanlandingham
> Sleezattle, WA, USA
>
> Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
>
> www.jvab.f4.ca


yeahhhhhhhhhhh yeahhhhhhhhhhh yeahhhhhhhhhhhh.....I know, I know.....yell at the new guy


and yes, I did eventually learn to yank on the clutch a little bit, I didn't need to get into the details there....in fact, I never understood 'double clutch' shifting.


so do you do the same with a dogbox? upshifting.....let up a tiny bit on the gas, feather the clutch and yank it out/throw it into gear?

what about downshifting? let up on the gas, get it in neutral, punch the gas/get the revs up and throw it back into gear and hang on for life and limb?

---

Jon Burke - KI6LSW
Blog: http://psgrallywrx.blogspot.com/

I was talking to Andrew Pinker on facebook about SP vs Open class and he said one of the reasons he's torn was because of the dogbox issue. I asked why, and he said its a confidence thing. If he's going into a corner he knows he can bang the box down a gear if he needs the power, and its much harder/not possible in the synchro box.

so I suppose there's an advantage.

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Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

ROI on a dogbox is really really questionable.
The reality is that spending money on seat time or advanced schools will be a better way to improve your times.

Dogboxes need more care and attention ...

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Dazed_Driver Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I was talking to Andrew Pinker on facebook about
> SP vs Open class and he said one of the reasons
> he's torn was because of the dogbox issue. I asked
> why, and he said its a confidence thing. If he's
> going into a corner he knows he can bang the box
> down a gear if he needs the power, and its much
> harder/not possible in the synchro box.
>
> so I suppose there's an advantage.

Timmy, the speed of the synchro gearchange depends on the amount of syncro-ing----braking---the sync hub and bronze ring has to do---and that is directly connected to when the ratio change from the last gear to the new gear.
My Saab close ratio was delivered from a factory rebuild with no bronze rings, thus non-synchro.

I didn't want to be constantly crunching the thing on changes so i added the synchro rings, no biggie when it was spotless and already out.

There has been MANY times since then that I'v banged it in without clutch, the gaps being small make it easier.

>
> Feisty Peacock?
>
> My noodle I doodled was ate by a poodle

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Thanks guys, I believe I will pass on the idea of owning one right now. Although tempting, I dont think it fits in my current plan.....but in the future, most certantly.

Here's the deal. After a while the engagement dogs get rounded from banging into gear. When they get really bad they won't hold the gear and the tranny will pop out of gear when you let off the gas. How fast the dogs wear and how often you have to do a rebuild is directly related to how hard you are on the gearbox and how often you shift without lift, etc. A gearbox in the hands of Dave Hintz, for example, is going to last a lot longer than a gearbox in the hands of Pat Richard. (I say this having built and maintained the same dogbox for both of these guys.) Not saying that one is better than the other, just that Pat is looking to go as fast as possible and get the most out of his equipment at all costs. Dave is more sympathetic to his equipment and is looking to get it to last a while. Both are very skilled drivers, Dave is more conservative. Anyway, In the 4 or 5 years that Dave has run the Holinger dogbox I think we've only replaced 2 or 3 worn dogs. And even then it was mostly precautionary. Only once was a gear actually starting to pop out when lifting the throttle. The trouble with a dogbox is that to replace the dog you have to replace the whole gear so it can get pretty expensive. But unless you are an animal when shifting it doesn't really need to be done as often as a lot people seem to think.

Jon. I codrove in a car with the PPG straight cut 1-4, still synchro. With 4.44 it was rad! The six speed is still probably a better option and unless you are really really beating on it should last longer and require less maintenance.

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Grant Hughes

matt15fan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks guys, I believe I will pass on the idea of
> owning one right now. Although tempting, I dont
> think it fits in my current plan.....but in the
> future, most certantly.


That was I was asking: what are the plans?
Can't advise if we don't know anything.
Don't be shy---we're not like the others......heh, heh, ...we're your friends..........


heh....(perv laugh off)

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Since you are building a Focus I assume that you are looking at the Quaife Dog kit. Quaife also sells the same gear ratios in a kit that keeps the factory syncros in place. I think this is would be the better option for most of the Focus owners in the US. You get the close ratios without the maintenance of the dogs. The other advantage is that just the gears is cheaper depending on the exchange rate with GBP.

Don't forget to add the $1,000 for the upgraded shift tower and $1,000 to get one of the alternate final drive ratios since 4.06:1 or whatever the kit comes with is not the best option. These costs hold for either the syncro or dog kits.