And I swore I'd never touch acid again....

subarus are made with the lightest gauge sheet metal ever....I just saw a subaru get totaled the other day in an offset 15mph rear ender, moved the rear end sideways by 1/4"...rediculous

---

-Tom
DemonRallyTeam | Fine Tuning | CTS Turbo & RP Turbos | RalleyTuned | JRM | Meister Autowerks
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Tom B Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> subarus are made with the lightest gauge sheet
> metal ever....I just saw a subaru get totaled the
> other day in an offset 15mph rear ender, moved the
> rear end sideways by 1/4"...rediculous
>
> __________________________________________________
> _________

Hey i don't know. They are made outta THIN shit but looking at some new US GM and Chrysler stuff it looked to be every bit as cheesy.
I think everything is.
All I know is everything post maybe 1998 makes Rare-bits look burlier than shit.
>

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

heymagic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Scrap it....come out here and buy a nice old
> Impreza. Less than $1000 you can drive one back
> home with no rust to mess with.


On the surface this makes sense BUT according to my math: $1000 impreza+ 2 weeks off work: $4000 + Road trip $2000 + 40 hours stripping shell + disposing of every part of the car except shell ?$$$ + LN doesn't make sense. That $1000 car just cost me $8000. For $8K I could just buy a completed caged 2008 shell from Pat.

I figured dipping would get rid of the rust, undercoating and seam sealer in one go while I smoke cigarettes and take photos

Plus with wire wheeling there are spots I can't get to with a drill/grinder but COULD access with a mig gun.

---

Gone fishing

Dazed_Driver Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When I worked in the classic car restoration shop,
> we got all the cars sandblasted instead of acid
> dipping. The acid will stay in various crevices
> and cracks and such and wont be any fun.
>
> Feisty Peacock?
>
>


I always hear this but if the acid bath gets everywhere doesn't the neutralizing bath get everywhere too? And does all the seam sealer dissapear? I don't want to pay for dipping only to have to go back and LN all the seams. Another thing I've wondered is why would someone restoring a classic car want their car to start rusting as soon as the $12,000 paint job goes on?

---

Gone fishing

David,

I'm going to be looking at dipping one or more shells in the near future. Personally I don't buy a lot of the "can't get the acid out of the seams etc"

Begin quote:

There are two main reasons for using phosphoric acid for rust removal: It dissolves rust at a much faster rate than it dissolves iron, and it leaves a nice iron phosphate coating on the clean metal surface. The reactions are: (a "_" before a number means to subscript the number.)



(1) Fe_2O_3 + 2 H_3PO_4 -----> 2 FePO_4 + 3 H_2O
fast

(2) Fe + H_3PO_4 -----> FePO_4 + H_2 (gas)
slow



In reaction 1, the rust (Fe2O3) gets turned into iron phosphate and water; this mostly gets washed away when you rinse the part. The phosphate part of phosphoric acid is responsible for this reaction. Reaction 2 is the reason you may see some bubbles. The iron itself is actually dissolving, but this is a relatively slow reaction. The H+ ions from the phosphoric acid are responsible for this reaction. You're not going to lose any worthwhile amount of metal to this reaction, but this is also the reason you don't leave the acid on the part for more than about 15 minutes. The layer of FePO4 that is left on the surface adheres strongly enough due to surface effects that it does not wash away with the rinse, hence the good protection from further rusting. (Note: reaction 1 is a simple exchange, 2 is oxidation-reduction; i.e. Fe+++ ---> Fe+++ and Fe(0) --> Fe+++.)

End quote

As long as they rinse the shell after, don't worry about it IMHO.

I've used phosphoric acid on the NSU and didn't rinse in 15 mins and it still has lots of steel.. and it's not thick sheet, trust me.

One of the things that make some people think it causes rust is that it will leave a light brown residue in spots where there wasn't rust before.. it's not a big deal.

Instead of having the shop oil the shell after have them hit it with a light coating of ell crappo TLC primer. The stuff that will protect it from rust, but you can remove with a finger nail Easy to remove for welding.

Of course that's all my opinion.

Can't tell you if it will clean out the seam sealer or not (guessing not)

---

Andrew M
Onterrible
30ish

Working hard to get LN delivered to the shop this weekend. When that happens, I'll get to working on both shells asap. Really hoping to have the LN work done before Xmas. Can ship the gun to you as soon as I'm done if you'd rather that method.
Personally, I like the idea of acid dipping, though I've heard (keyword being heard) that it will not remove all the glue and undercoating.

---

Grant Hughes

You better plan to do the spraying within 2-3 days of the cans arriving od schedule 1 can then the other a few days later like when you're done with the first.
I goes REALLY fast chipping.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Plan was to have them dropped off to shop on Friday and do both shells on Saturday and Sunday. Hopefully I'll have a helper, to at least assist with the rotisserie, which like everything car related I seem to do, takes longer to get done than expected...

---

Grant Hughes

NoCoast Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Plan was to have them dropped off to shop on
> Friday and do both shells on Saturday and Sunday.
> Hopefully I'll have a helper, to at least assist
> with the rotisserie, which like everything car
> related I seem to do, takes longer to get done
> than expected...

I used the doors for leverage who I was rotating shells alone, they're long and the hang out.

You got some big fans organised for blowing the vapors away SO YOU CAN SEE?

You ever going to call?
>
> Grant Hughes
> www.nocoastmotorsports.net
> Denver, CO

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Doivi Clarkinen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WTF? How do you get rust like that on a car so
> new? Oh yeah, they spray the roads with sulphuric
> acid or something over there, don't they?


What do you mean new, it's 15 years old already!

Hearin' the things Alex is telling me about the car situation in Idaho really drives it home that Things are just Different here. 15 year old import, you're lucky if the body U-channel is strong enough for the jack to not punch right through...

---

Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2009 08:05PM by Pete.

david amor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> I always hear this but if the acid bath gets
> everywhere doesn't the neutralizing bath get
> everywhere too? And does all the seam sealer
> dissapear? I don't want to pay for dipping only to
> have to go back and LN all the seams. Another
> thing I've wondered is why would someone restoring
> a classic car want their car to start rusting as
> soon as the $12,000 paint job goes on?

You know... I've never really thought about that. I'm not sure. Do they dip it into a neutralizer? Or is it just rinsed out with water? Or water/baking soda mixture? Oddly enough, I was just thinking about that when I read your post (the original one) that they could just neutralize the stuff, and not have the left over acid problem. So I really don't know. I've actually never messed with an acid dipped shell, just the blasted ones. I did ask why and they told me acid dipping is a mess to deal with after. So thats all I know.

I do know the blasting will take off the MAJORITY of the sealer in the cracks, but you still might (probably will) need to take a pick to the crack and "dig out" the little bit still between the layers if you want REALLY easy and the strongest welds (or just burn through it, you'll probably have to at some places, and try not to inhale the smoke). Blasting will also take off the undercoating remarkably. I still haven't quite figured out how it does, as it seems it should just get laughed at my the undercoating, but apparently it comes right off.

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

david amor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> Plus with wire wheeling there are spots I can't
> get to with a drill/grinder but COULD access with
> a mig gun.
>

Tell me one of those spots and I'll take a picture of the stich weld on my chassis. I got everything! 3" wire wheel on the end of a drill works wonders.

In fact the ONLY place I had troube getting to was between the passenger side frame rail (in the trunk area) and the lower rear quarter. I stuck a 2.5" cupped wire wheel on the end of a drill and got enough off to seam weld. The heat from the welding loosend the rest and I got it out with 10 minutes and a paint scraper.

Very tedious, but I learned a hell of allot about welding in all sorts of positions. I had no rotissary, I'd imagine it would only take half the time if I didn't need to stop for the blood to travel back up to my fingers... In hindsight, I wish I'd just flipped the shell on it's side, but I was still thinking "in - the - box".

david amor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> heymagic Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Scrap it....come out here and buy a nice old
> > Impreza. Less than $1000 you can drive one
> back
> > home with no rust to mess with.
>
>
> On the surface this makes sense BUT according to
> my math: $1000 impreza+ 2 weeks off work: $4000 +
> Road trip $2000 + 40 hours stripping shell +
> disposing of every part of the car except shell
> ?$$$ + LN doesn't make sense. That $1000 car just
> cost me $8000. For $8K I could just buy a
> completed caged 2008 shell from Pat.
>
> I figured dipping would get rid of the rust,
> undercoating and seam sealer in one go while I
> smoke cigarettes and take photos
>
> Plus with wire wheeling there are spots I can't
> get to with a drill/grinder but COULD access with
> a mig gun.
>
> "this is certainly not a game for flyweights or
> ping-pong players-all arguments to the contrary"
> -C.B.


check your numbers there. 2 weeks for the drive? if motivated one could drive all the way around the earth in 2 weeks. $2000 for a road trip? you planning to visit a lot of strip clubs? 40 hours to strip a shell? drink more coffee, and why on earth would you throw away all those spare parts? most importantly, how much is dipping? When I asked around it was over $1000, plus shipping the shell to and fro, plus then you really have to do a decent paint job EVERYWHERE (sounds cheap and easy) or you'll be rustier than when you started.

alkun Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> check your numbers there. 2 weeks for the drive?
> if motivated one could drive all the way around
> the earth in 2 weeks.

Hell I drove Seattle to Boston several times in the mid 90s in old 4 speed Saab V4s
and it took 3 days, 3 and 3/4 hours on I-90 or Hiway 2 and thru Ontario and via Toronto, then Ottawa then thru Vermont and Nude Hampster.
Solo. averaging 50 mph including tea, tea disposal, leg stretching and 4 hours sleep as needed.

Here's some idea from Google for Hiway 2:
Driving directions to Toronto, ON, Canada
2,579 mi – about 2 days 1 hour


$2000 for a road trip? you
> planning to visit a lot of strip clubs?

Scary.




40 hours
> to strip a shell? drink more coffee,
Tea


and why on
> earth would you throw away all those spare parts?

Sell on Ebay for a million dollars!!


> most importantly, how much is dipping? When I
> asked around it was over $1000, plus shipping the
> shell to and fro, plus then you really have to do
> a decent paint job EVERYWHERE (sounds cheap and
> easy) or you'll be rustier than when you started.

Well just moving the loom aside and squirting the Liquid N is pretty easy, stop making sense

>
>

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

alkun Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> david amor Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > heymagic Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Scrap it....come out here and buy a nice
> old
> > > Impreza. Less than $1000 you can drive
> one
> > back
> > > home with no rust to mess with.
> >
> >
> > On the surface this makes sense BUT according
> to
> > my math: $1000 impreza+ 2 weeks off work:
> $4000 +
> > Road trip $2000 + 40 hours stripping shell +
> > disposing of every part of the car except
> shell
> > ?$$$ + LN doesn't make sense. That $1000 car
> just
> > cost me $8000. For $8K I could just buy a
> > completed caged 2008 shell from Pat.
> >
> > I figured dipping would get rid of the rust,
> > undercoating and seam sealer in one go while
> I
> > smoke cigarettes and take photos
> >
> > Plus with wire wheeling there are spots I
> can't
> > get to with a drill/grinder but COULD access
> with
> > a mig gun.
> >
> > "this is certainly not a game for flyweights
> or
> > ping-pong players-all arguments to the
> contrary"
> > -C.B.
>
>
> check your numbers there. 2 weeks for the drive?
> if motivated one could drive all the way around
> the earth in 2 weeks. $2000 for a road trip? you
> planning to visit a lot of strip clubs? 40 hours
> to strip a shell? drink more coffee, and why on
> earth would you throw away all those spare parts?
> most importantly, how much is dipping? When I
> asked around it was over $1000, plus shipping the
> shell to and fro, plus then you really have to do
> a decent paint job EVERYWHERE (sounds cheap and
> easy) or you'll be rustier than when you started.
>
> $2000 for the trip? Yes if you include the flight duty on imort of the car and beer. 40 hours to strip a CAR, Yes. None of the parts would be spares from a base model mid 90's impreza. Dipping is $1450 and I would drive it there in 30 min. THEN while they were stipping I could go watch some stripping

---

Gone fishing



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/16/2009 04:42PM by david amor.