Doivi Clarkinen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Listen to John, 0.30 works just fine. If you are
> having trouble blowing through the thin sheetmetal
> then don't hold the trigger dow for the whole
> stitch. Go zip, zip, zip, zip so as not to get the
> puddle too hot. And make sure you get as much of
> the seam sealer out of there that you can. A
> propane torch, a pick tool and a wire brush works
> wonders for that.

Ok, so I have a couple of welding theory questions. Probably not a big issue on stitch welding since the parts are already welded together and you are just adding material.

Doesn't the zip zip zip technique cause cold lap in the weld and weaken it significantly?

So I know the 030 wire will put down more material for a given wire speed but doesn't the 024 wire allow you run a lower voltage with a higher wire feed speed to make up the difference? With the lower volts the arc will not be digging out as much of the base material and thus should allow you to keep the puddle a little shallower. This seems like it would allow you to run a fast bead that would be less likely to burn through and have a much better fusion with the base metal than the zip zip zip technique with 030.

Rallymech Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> All you ignorant old farts don't know how your
> welding machines work.....so I will have to
> ed-u-macate you!
>
> The electrical current flows from the tip into the
> wire. When the wire gets very close to or touches
> the base metal the electrical circuit is completed
> and a portion of the wire melts. The circuit is
> then open again, no current flow. The advancing
> wire closes the circuit again. It's called short
> circuit welding. All this happens fairly quickly
> and you can hear it in the steady crackle. When
> you stop welding you can see that the wire has
> melted back and formed a little dingle berry. It
> takes a certain amount of current (heat) to melt
> that wire and the base metal. Thinner wire
> requires less current. When I look at the set up
> chart on my machine I see that I can weld lighter
> gauge material with .024 than I can with .030. I
> also know that when I welded the front clip onto a
> friends Volvo 240 on Monday, I switched from .030
> to .024 and it was much better.
>
> These are some of the things you learn when you
> actually go to school, get a degree and work as a
> professional welder, fabricator and mechanic. On
> the other hand you could just read the chart on
> the side of your welding machine!
>
> Put that in your pipe and smoke it!


I'll bring you my betyg or certificate or "diplom" for welding from Arbetsmarknad Utbildning Centrum i Liljeholmen for a 2 year course I did in 8 months.
Finished course quicker cause I had been working as welder -fabricater since before starting the course.

And it wasn't all spread out all over, just welding.

And that means, lesse you're how young tomorrow?, that I was getting paid to mig weld when you were what 5? or 6 years old?

I see your Ha!
And a raise you a Ha!
So that's now HA!HA!

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Rallymech Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> All you ignorant old farts don't know how your
> welding machines work.....so I will have to
> ed-u-macate you!
>
> The electrical current flows from the tip into the
> wire. When the wire gets very close to or touches
> the base metal the electrical circuit is completed
> and a portion of the wire melts. The circuit is
> then open again, no current flow. The advancing
> wire closes the circuit again. It's called short
> circuit welding. All this happens fairly quickly
> and you can hear it in the steady crackle. When
> you stop welding you can see that the wire has
> melted back and formed a little dingle berry. It
> takes a certain amount of current (heat) to melt
> that wire and the base metal. Thinner wire
> requires less current. When I look at the set up
> chart on my machine I see that I can weld lighter
> gauge material with .024 than I can with .030. I
> also know that when I welded the front clip onto a
> friends Volvo 240 on Monday, I switched from .030
> to .024 and it was much better.
>
> These are some of the things you learn when you
> actually go to school, get a degree and work as a
> professional welder, fabricator and mechanic. On
> the other hand you could just read the chart on
> the side of your welding machine!
>
> Put that in your pipe and smoke it!
>
> Robert.
> "You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy."
> Eddie Fiorelli.


Now we're gettin' theoretical! Don't forget that the base metal has to melt too, not just the welding wire. So the key here is feed speed vs. voltage. Somewhere in there is something about "softer arc", less penetration, and more weld deposition with thicker wire. So I've heard, I know nothing about welding.

So after years of pipe welding I welded up the seams in the front of our first rally car using a STICK welder AC 3/32 rod.
That was in 1992. By the way it was an AMC Gremlin.

Nick

---

Nick Leone
Former scca member

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Finished course quicker cause I had been working
> as welder -fabricater since before the Ice Age.
>

>
> I see your Ha!
> And a raise you a Ha!
> So that's now HA!HA!
>

fixed.


ha, ha, HA!!

---

Jon Burke - KI6LSW
Blog: http://psgrallywrx.blogspot.com/

Btw, here is a cool youtube video showing the mig wire deposits

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

Andrew_Frick Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Doivi Clarkinen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Listen to John, 0.30 works just fine. If you
> are
> > having trouble blowing through the thin
> sheetmetal
> > then don't hold the trigger dow for the
> whole
> > stitch. Go zip, zip, zip, zip so as not to
> get the
> > puddle too hot. And make sure you get as
> much of
> > the seam sealer out of there that you can.
> A
> > propane torch, a pick tool and a wire brush
> works
> > wonders for that.
>
> Ok, so I have a couple of welding theory
> questions. Probably not a big issue on stitch
> welding since the parts are already welded
> together and you are just adding material.
>
> Doesn't the zip zip zip technique cause cold lap
> in the weld and weaken it significantly?
>
> So I know the 030 wire will put down more material
> for a given wire speed but doesn't the 024 wire
> allow you run a lower voltage with a higher wire
> feed speed to make up the difference? With the
> lower volts the arc will not be digging out as
> much of the base material and thus should allow
> you to keep the puddle a little shallower. This
> seems like it would allow you to run a fast bead
> that would be less likely to burn through and have
> a much better fusion with the base metal than the
> zip zip zip technique with 030.

You pretty much answered your own question. A cold lap is not even an issue when seam welding. It certainly won't make it weaker. However, you don't want to zip zip when welding a rollcage or suspension piece or something critical. It isn't necessary to do on thicker material anyway. The only reason to do it on sheet metal is to keep from blowing through. You can use .024 like you say and get good results but it's more important to get the seams really clean and have the welder adjusted just right. I've seen plenty of bad seam welds made with thin wire due to poor penetraton or the weld was just built up on one panel and didn't actually fuse the two panels together if you looked closely.
I don't even bother buying a seperate spool of .024 for sheet metal anymore, I just go zip zip with .030.
>
>

Rallymech Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> All you ignorant old farts don't know how your
> welding machines work.....so I will have to
> ed-u-macate you!
>
> The electrical current flows from the tip into the
> wire. When the wire gets very close to or touches
> the base metal the electrical circuit is completed
> and a portion of the wire melts. The circuit is
> then open again, no current flow. The advancing
> wire closes the circuit again. It's called short
> circuit welding. All this happens fairly quickly
> and you can hear it in the steady crackle. When
> you stop welding you can see that the wire has
> melted back and formed a little dingle berry. It
> takes a certain amount of current (heat) to melt
> that wire and the base metal. Thinner wire
> requires less current. When I look at the set up
> chart on my machine I see that I can weld lighter
> gauge material with .024 than I can with .030. I
> also know that when I welded the front clip onto a
> friends Volvo 240 on Monday, I switched from .030
> to .024 and it was much better.

This is all true. However, I got old and lazy and can't be bothered to go buy a spool of .024 when I can just go zip zip with .030 with equally good results.

>
> These are some of the things you learn when you
> actually go to school, get a degree and work as a
> professional welder, fabricator and mechanic. On
> the other hand you could just read the chart on
> the side of your welding machine!
>
> Put that in your pipe and smoke it!
>
>

Well fawk you, you little fawking punk! I've done all those things.
(Wait a minute, there's a chart on the side of my welder?)

A car is thin metal right ..so when you weld on it you need to match the same thickness metal as the car ... .030 can 'turkey sh!#t' on you if you dont ZZZ (Zip Zip Zip ) .. To much 'mass of metal' on a car shell weld car make it crack the metal around it ...Once you take metal and stamp it as the way a car is made ... IT HATEs to be weld on ..


Clean both sides of the metal ...way easyer with two people "I" think..

You can clean each side ....OR ... Clean one side ...weld and have some one else clean the other side ....the junk on the back side gets hot and blows a hole sometimes too..

Having someone telling me to give up and stop welding looking from the back side really makes killer welds and no holes ...And they clean with a brush as we go helps ...by the way ..

Ha ha ha to you guys too.. I'll woos out the ha fight .. Or maybe i'll carpet bomb you all ....

Have a good day

David

Hazardous Toys inc



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 01/09/2010 07:58AM by Haztoys.

Since we're talking about a difference of .006inches which is .152mm or the thickness of a human hair, I'm thinking prep and technique is way more important than .006 thicker or thinner wire...yes? no?


While I'm just an old fart who learned to weld the hard way (no edumacation) I have butt welded car 1/4 panels with .035 and .030 with no big issues. Overlapping welds, like seam welding, should be childs play with either .030 or .024.

Ha! X Ha!

Gene bring up a good question.

I have been doing quite a bit of body work in the last few months. First I repaired all the rust on the floor and sills of the Saab and then the 240 front clip. I have done a lot of sheet metal fabrication but not much automotive repair. Do you guys overlap your patch panels or but weld them? The over lapping repairs are stronger and the welding is easier but I like the fit of the but joints.

---

Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

Rallymech Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Gene bring up a good question.
>
> I have been doing quite a bit of body work in the
> last few months. First I repaired all the rust on
> the floor and sills of the Saab and then the 240
> front clip. I have done a lot of sheet metal
> fabrication but not much automotive repair. Do
> you guys overlap your patch panels or but weld
> them? The over lapping repairs are stronger and
> the welding is easier but I like the fit of the
> but joints.
>
> Robert.
> "You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy."
> Eddie Fiorelli.


But welds, ive been doing my share for the past 6 months, and the body guy thats been giving me direction has said but welds, and grind. Older stuff its much easier thicker material newer cars are well WOW, you remember my hood! 1/32nd

Butwelds for body panel, lap joints for everything else (double skinning, lowered floorpans, trunk patches, etc) is how I do it.

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

Dazed_Driver Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Butwelds for body panel, lap joints for everything
> else (double skinning, lowered floorpans, trunk
> patches, etc) is how I do it.
>
> Feisty Peacock?
>
>


The young dude is right. If you're patching up a hole in the floorboard it doesn't matter so make it easy on yourself and overlap it. If you want to get fancy you could use a flanging tool. For body panels if you're cutting out rust and welding a patch in or something then butt welding is the proper way. Actually, when I was restoring cars I practiced the lost art of hammer welding. This involve using a gas welder (I liked to use a small jeweler's torch) and a hammer and dolly. You would weld the seam and then immediately hammer the welded area to shrink the metal and keep it flat. You didn't need anything more than a light skim of filler if you knew what you were doing.

its all about brass brazing followed by lead...