1fastben Ben Hetland Elite Moderator Location: Utah Join Date: 09/12/2007 Age: Settling Down Posts: 297 Rally Car: None, right now |
Hokay, so I have an aluminum flywheel getting installed on the Foci, and is essentially too late to do anything about it, but last time I talked to JVL he badmouthed them. John, as a disclaimer, I'm not saying you're wrong. With how pokey the ZX3 engine is, I thought it would help it out in acceleration by having less mass to turn.
So in you're guys' infinite rally knowledge and opinions, what's the cost/benefit analysis of aluminum flywheels? Ben Hetland 1973 Volvo 142 project car (with some cone-smashing on dirt in it's future, however) "No. Rally Racing is a back alley sport filled with jackals, headhunters and thugs!" -Pops Racer (Speed Racer movie) www.utahrallygroup.com |
Ted Andkilde Ted Andkilde Infallible Moderator Location: Windsor, ON, Canada Join Date: 04/30/2006 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 329 Rally Car: 1968 Mini |
Having an Ali flywheel is good for performance , potentially bad for reliability. Steel one's are essentially "fit and forget" until you do something truly stupid and heat them to the temperature of the sun. Aluminum one's are fairly reliable but add in goofy stuff like dissimilar metals, differential expansion rates and less mass, ie, flywheel bolts can fret and come loose, friction surface bolts can do the same, friction surface is less forgiving of "F-it, I just need to get to service" abuse than a big beefy chunk of one piece flywheel steel.
They work as advertised, you just have to keep an eye on them, like welded steel turbo manifolds or multi-piece brake rotors. Comes down to a "is the performance advantage worth the potential trade-off in reliability" question. t Pure mathematics is the enemy of every truly creative man -- Sir Alec |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Senior Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
Ted first most cars have IRON, and I deffo ain't a fan of iron from their weight and the danger of serious crack propagation problems leading to failures.
Aluminum I think has 2 problems: strmgth at high temp ie the shit gets gooey at 600-800 degrees, but for Ben the more important one is the relative ineffectiveness of shaving a few crummy LBS off of a TOTAL ROTATING DRIVELINE weighing what? Crank, pully flywheel disc, pressure plate, input shaft, all the gears, out shaft, differential, ring gear, inner CVs, half shafts, outer CVs wheel bearings , hubs, discs, and finally 4 fucking HUGE wheels and HEAVY TIRES. which have to move a car weighing 2800 lbs. The dollar spent to potential MEASURABLE CAR INCREASE in PERFORMANCE RETURN looks pretty sucky to me. And I believe the problem is Ben is looking for "simple bolt on" junk as some sort of panacea when the real solution means more money and actual work. So I told him I think it's NOT worth wasting money. More compression and cams not designed to be EPA compliant cams might wake the motor up, make more POP, and then gearing... John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
Josh Wimpey Josh Wimpey Junior Moderator Location: VA Join Date: 12/27/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 649 Rally Car: Sneak the Golf |
John, please tell us why shaving 5-10lbs off a flywheel is not worthwhile but you contantly champion nice lightweight connecting rod & piston configurations that lose significantly less weight?
Is it that reducing rotating mass is less effective performance enhancer than reducing reciprocating mass? Or, is the reciprocating mass a big deal for engine longevity & wear? . ____________________________________________________________- One. Class -- 2WD www.quantumrallysport.com http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Quantum-Rally-Sport/281129179600?ref=nf |
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1fastben Ben Hetland Elite Moderator Location: Utah Join Date: 09/12/2007 Age: Settling Down Posts: 297 Rally Car: None, right now |
Yep, you're right John, I am essentially looking for "bolt-on and go faster" stuff without doing anything major, even though I realize that's rarely the case. However, I did take your advice on getting cams. I bought some Comp Cams ones that are supposed to pull strong for the majority of the rpm range.
The Fidanza flywheel I bought like a 1 1/2 years ago that is now going in the car is, I think, 11 pounds, and the stock one is 22 or 24. Anyone had any experience with Fidanza? Ben Hetland 1973 Volvo 142 project car (with some cone-smashing on dirt in it's future, however) "No. Rally Racing is a back alley sport filled with jackals, headhunters and thugs!" -Pops Racer (Speed Racer movie) www.utahrallygroup.com |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Senior Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
Josh Wimpey Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > John, please tell us why shaving 5-10lbs off a > flywheel is not worthwhile but you contantly > champion nice lightweight connecting rod & > piston configurations that lose significantly less > weight? > > Is it that reducing rotating mass is less > effective performance enhancer than reducing > reciprocating mass? It is in my very humble opinion that a small change (at the flywheel) in the TOTAL rotating of low power, heavy steel bodied cars is not a worthwhile change. > > Or, is the reciprocating mass a big deal for > engine longevity & wear? There is enormous cost in stopping and starting the piston and about half the rod weight at the top of the stroke and the bottom of the stroke. NO GOOD comes from weight here. Particularly in motors with old design things extremely tall comp heights like old Volvos, Opels, 1500 Ford V4 at or around 45.5-46mm tall, there is POUNDS to be saved in weight. It's important for how the motor "picks up' and what the safe rev range is, vibrations, all sorts of stuff. > > > > > . > > __________________________________________________ > __________- > > > > > > John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Senior Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
hudson Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > I'm pretty certain that it matters how far away > the mass is from the axis of rotation.. and with a > flywheel, you get a lot of weight fairly far away. Typical clutch 200-240mm dia, 100-120mm radius, OK? > > Andrew M > Onterrible > 30ish With a 640 or 650mm tall tire you get a fuckava lot more weight a fuckava lot farther away. John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
NoCoast Grant Hughes Godlike Moderator Location: Whitefish, MT Join Date: 01/11/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 6,818 Rally Car: BMW |
I have a Fidanza flywheel in the Merkur. 9 lbs vs. 23 lbs or whatever the stock Merkur is. When I installed it I literally had made no other changes. I had to remove the T5 to install a pilot bearing instead of a pilot bushing. Car definitely revs faster, but also has a hell of a time staying spinning when going from high RPMs to clutch in and no pedal input. I've considered selling it and getting the steel one that only weighs a few pounds more, but whatever, not a big deal to me.
Grant Hughes |
BJosephD Brian j Dyer Mega Moderator Location: southern maine Join Date: 05/01/2009 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 381 Rally Car: 04 Rocky Mountain MTB... |
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Jay Jay Woodward Junior Moderator Location: Snohomish, WA Join Date: 12/21/2005 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 893 Rally Car: '90 Mazdog Frankenprotege |
I have run Fidanzas in what, maybe 10 rallies or so and several years of street drive with zero issues. The car pulls out of slow corners faster and revs up quicker, and the only downside is taking the time to practice hill starts. Taking mass off the engine offers more of an effect than is obvious, compared to the rest of the drivetrain, cuz the shafts, axles and tires are spinning at some considerable fraction of RPM the flywheel is spinning at, and momentum increases with the square of velocity. Do the math on accelerating 25lb on an 18" circle from zero to 6500RPM and you'll be surprised at how much power that requires, power that goes into spinning that flywheel before getting to the ground. You simply get better throttle response. So I'm a fan, although I too have heard the horror stories of aluminum flywheels causing nasty problems and all I can do is plug my ears and say "it won't happen to me it won't happen to me"
Jay Woodward Snohomish, WA '90 Mazdog Frankenprotege Chronologically, 46... |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Senior Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
Jay Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > I have run Fidanzas in what, maybe 10 rallies or > so and several years of street drive with zero > issues. The car pulls out of slow corners faster > and revs up quicker, and the only downside is > taking the time to practice hill starts. Taking > mass off the engine offers more of an effect than > is obvious, compared to the rest of the > drivetrain, cuz the shafts, axles and tires are > spinning at some considerable fraction of RPM the > flywheel is spinning at, and momentum increases > with the square of velocity. Do the math on > accelerating 25lb on an 18" circle from zero to > 6500RPM and you'll be surprised at how much power > that requires, power that goes into spinning that > flywheel before getting to the ground. You simply > get better throttle response. So I'm a fan, > although I too have heard the horror stories of > aluminum flywheels causing nasty problems and all > I can do is plug my ears and say "it won't happen > to me it won't happen to me" > > Jay Woodward > Snohomish, WA > '90 Mazdog Frankenprotege > Chronologically, 40... It ain't 18" circle Jay, it's less than 12“ but the wheels and tires are 25". Cost/benefit John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
Pete Pete Remner Godlike Moderator Location: Cleveland, Ohio Join Date: 01/11/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 2,022 |
One one hand, the tires are spinning a lot slower than the flywheel...
On the other hand, I couldn't tell the difference between a 26lb iron flywheel and a 9.5lb aluminum one on a rotary. (Free is a quality overcoming many faults) Pete Remner Cleveland, Ohio 1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing) 1978 Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver. |
eyesoreracing Dave Coleman Super Moderator Location: Long Beach, CA Join Date: 05/13/2007 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 448 Rally Car: Mazda3, SE-R Spec-V, 510 |
JVL,
The diameter of the flywheel might be a lot smaller than a wheel, but the speed is a lot higher thanks to all those gears between the tires and the engine. Net result: flywheel mass matters a LOT in low gears, not much at all in high gears. long-winded mathematical explanation including actual numbers, some of which might be correct (I wrote it 10 years ago and haven't read it since): http://www.modified.com/editors/technobabble/0109scc_technobabble/index.html -Dave |
eyesoreracing Dave Coleman Super Moderator Location: Long Beach, CA Join Date: 05/13/2007 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 448 Rally Car: Mazda3, SE-R Spec-V, 510 |
Ooops, that wasn't the story I thought it was. That was just a lazy, "best of" story I wrote one month when I didn't have anything new to say. The point I'm trying to make is in there, but not the math behind it.
I can't seem to find the original anywhere on the interwebs, so here's the draft I found on my HD (from Aug, 1999): Back in the June issue, I attempted to nail down an old rule of thumb about wheel weight. That rule, depending on whose thumb you listened to, said that because of the rotational inertia of a wheel, adding a pound to you wheels was like adding three, four, or even ten pounds to the car. Through the miracle of math, I managed to totally confuse the issue, adding obfuscation to speculation and ending up with what appeared to be empirical proof that all those thumbs were full of hot air. Instead of proving that the rule of thumb should be 2 pounds for every pound on the wheel, or 4 pounds if it’s at the rim, and 1.5 pounds near the center, or something of that nature, I proved that an 18 pound wheel was like 18.15-pounds on the car. In other words adding a pound on the wheel was like adding 1.008 pounds to the car—the rotational inertia of the wheel appeared to have a negligible effect on the car’s acceleration. When mathematical proof runs so contrary to common sense and personal experience, there’s a good chance something is wrong, so I invited our readers to shoot me down. Nothing gets people excited more than a good screw up, and there was a doosey hidden away behind all that math. Lance Schall, a weight-conscious Miata owner, was the first one to spot it. Before revealing the error, let’s take a quick look back at the argument. When an object is moving, it has a certain amount of kinetic energy. A rotating object that is spinning in place also has kinetic energy. Since a rolling object like a wheel is both spinning and moving in a straight line, the kinetic energy of a wheel is the sum of the kinetic energy from rotation and the kinetic energy from translation (moving in a straight line). That’s simple enough, but what I wanted to figure out was how significant the rotational portion of the wheel’s kinetic energy was, and how much non-rotating weight you would have to add to the car to have the same kinetic energy. My error was in the formula for kinetic energy from rotation. The formula is ![]() Where I is the moment of inertia (the rotational equivalent of mass) and w is the rotational speed. Nobody really likes equations in the first place, but there is nothing worse than equations with Greek letters in them. In an attempt to make all this geeky stuff seem interesting, I usually try to translate from Nerdish to English, but that translation is where I screwed up. Since nobody wants to try and remember what w is, I simply changed it to a more familiar expression of rotational speed: rpm. Unfortunately, the equation only applies if rotational speed is measured in radians/time. What the hell is a radian? Now you understand why I wanted to use rpm... Radians are just like degrees, only bigger. Where there are 360 degrees in a full circle, there are 2pi (about 6.283) radians in one revolution, so my solution last time ended up being off by a factor of 2pi^2 (about 39.5). In other words, for the 18-pound wheel that I tried to model last time, the rotational inertia of the wheel acts like 5.9 pounds sitting in the car. To figure out how much weight you would have to add to the car to have the same kinetic energy as the rotating wheel, you have to figure out the relationship between wheel rpm and speed. That relationship is simply rpm times the circumference of the tire (not the circumference of the wheel). Since rpm is w divided by 2pi, we can substitute w/2p*Circumference for velocity, and equate the rotational portion of the wheel’s kinetic energy with the linear kinetic energy of that rule-of-thumb mass we are looking for. In other words: ![]() If we solve for M, we get the formula for the rule of thumb: ![]() We calculated rotational inertia (I) for a theoretical wheel last time, but the reason this formula isn’t in general use is that it is extremely difficult to figure out the rotational inertia of any object more complex than a cylinder or a disc. Now that we have the formula, let’s look at some examples. Instead of modeling a whole wheel, lets just look at what an extra pound will do in various parts of a wheel. Take some relatively conservative wheels like a 15x7, a 16x7 and a 17x7, and wrap them in 205/50-15, 205/45-16, and 205/40-17 tires (remember, you have to know the tire size to know the rolling circumference). Adding a pound to the rim of the 15x7-inch wheel is like adding 1.37 pounds to the car (M=0.37). Adding a pound to the 16x7 wheel rim acts like 1.41 pounds, and a pound on the 17x7 acts like 1.47 pounds. (For all of these calculations I assumed that the rim is 1/2-inch in from the outer edge of the wheel, since the majority of the material is not actually at the edge.) If you add a pound to the tire on any of these, you will feel like you added about 2 pounds to the car. Our old rule of thumb, it appears, does exaggerate somewhat, but at least it means well. You should also consider that every pound added to a wheel or tire also has to be multiplied by four, unless you have mastered the art of driving on three wheels. The same logic used to look at spinning wheels can also be used to look at spinning flywheels, but the relationship between w and velocity is more complex. Because the gearbox is between the engine and the flywheel, you have to factor in the gear ratio and final drive ratio, and the relationship will be different depending on what gear you are in. For a flywheel, ![]() where “Gear†is the gear ratio, “Final†is the final drive ratio, and “Circ.†is still the circumference of the tire. This gives us a new rule for flywheels that goes like this: ![]() Play with this a little and you can see why a lighter flywheel can make a car faster. I consulted Dirk Starksen at Advanced Clutch Technology and learned that they take 7 pounds off a Civic EX flywheel. All of that weight comes out of a band that is toward the outer edge. Based on ACT’s specs, we assumed that all the weight came from a cylindrical band 9 1/8 inches in diameter. Using our new formula we learned that the effect is surprisingly large in the lower gears. Removing 7 pounds from the flywheel is like removing as much as 206 pounds from the car! Next month no math, I promise. |