BMW 318i

Cosworth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I dont know if or why the golf is faster than any
> other platform here in the states, but when I
> drove Ozgur's Golf in NY last year I noticed it
> was a much better car to push and control at the
> limit therefore keeping the momentum than my old
> Acura. And that was on season old tires, 120bhp
> and a bent strut.
>

Well the basic shell and dimensions and weight are all OK, but theres always bent parts and the threat of broken CVs and hubs and trannies..

But as for the WHY that's the question, why so many HERE and nowhere else...

I believe we learn when we study underlying causes of "anomalous occurrences".

They WERE reasonably popular for BUDGET guys in Sweden in the late 80s and that's it; anybody with more budget got the MUCH BETTER, much more powerful in rally trim--like 40 bhp more---Opel Kadett GSI, many with less than Gold budget went into Suzuki 1300 16v GTI.---if they were hard bitten fwd guys.

See? I KNOW the REASONS there from asking guys "WHY do you do a___________?"

So, why so so many ONLY HERE?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

john vanlandingham Wrote:

> WHY DOES GOLVES "DOMINATE"?


'Cuz you always drive faster knowing you have 50 more potential donor shells in the local junkyard. Not always the case with a more obscure oddball car....

---

Opel is a 4-letter word...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10498579@N07/sets/

> WHY DOES GOLVES "DOMINATE"?
>
> John Vanlandingham
> Sleezattle, WA, USA


Might as well ask "Why does any car dominate?"

The answer, at least in the US, is not because it has the "right bits" or that it has adequate brakes, Final Drives, Ft-lbs, fancy rear suspension setups etc etc.

Maybe none of the things you preach so adamantly about are really that important for doing well in US rally? Maybe they are not really important anywhere. And maybe, just maybe, the level of driving seen at the pointy end of the stick here in the US isn't as pathetic as you constantly insinuate it is.



BTW, Golves aren't even the most common in the US rally scene anymore...
Oregon entry
4 rabbits -- don't know where 4 running rally rabbits came from ???
3 mk2 golves
3 Focuses
3 Honda CRX

---

____________________________________________________________-

One. Class -- 2WD

www.quantumrallysport.com

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Quantum-Rally-Sport/281129179600?ref=nf

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> So, why so so many ONLY HERE?


Well fock John you coulda ask that early. Its obvious the reason why. For one, its not like we have Renault Clios and Meganes, Citroen Saxos and C2's, Peugeot 106's, 205's, 206's and 306's, Fiat Punto's, Seat Ibizas and Leons, Opel Astras and Corsas, Alfa Romeo 147's, Nissan Micras, and all those other econoboxes to fok with. So yeah thats one reason. The other is the cult following.

Josh Wimpey Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > > WHY DOES GOLVES "DOMINATE"?
> >
> > John Vanlandingham
> > Sleezattle, WA, USA
>
>
> Might as well ask "Why does any car dominate?"

No, that wasn't the question at all.
wassis name said fwd "dominates" and we all know the have been and remain the commonest car HERE nationwide and, more importantly, the car constantly advised to newbs that they "should build"...


>
> The answer, at least in the US, is not because it
> has the "right bits" or that it has adequate
> brakes, Final Drives, Ft-lbs, fancy rear
> suspension setups etc etc.

Then why?
>
> Maybe none of the things you preach so adamantly
> about are really that important for doing well in
> US rally?

Possibly not, if people have 'enough" fun driving just slightly warmed over cars less hot that I supply as street cars.....




Maybe they are not really important
> anywhere.


Are you trying to be funny? or serious? I don't know cause it's suggesting something pretty silly IF you have ever seen the normal club competition anywhere in Northern Europe...

And maybe, just maybe, the level of
> driving seen at the pointy end of the stick here
> in the US isn't as pathetic as you constantly
> insinuate it is.

It's not insinuation, I've posted endless links to SS times from for example Finnish events showing their F-cup cars matching or beating Group N top times, and those same GpN drivers doing top 20 in WRC events--thus any reasonable person can see if Hakki Hälarna in his F-cup car is as fast as Pekka Perkalainenenen in his GpN Mitsu+++who does a 20th in WRC you can by extension see Hakki is THAT FAST.

The dull end of the stick [semiotic lesson]（I‘m so fed up with the term originated by Pat Richard the “pointy end of the stick“ that I want to vomit. When I hear somebody repeating it---repetition of phrases endlessly to me has always indicated---in my limited experience---that people are repeating stuff, not thinking about things---and they're doing it so their words are ‘recognised' and as a "social recognition marker" in effect saying "I'm with you" not addressing the subject---[/semiotic lesson ] is fairly dull and I strongly maintain that it is highly equipemnt based---that few or none of those guys could do the speeds they do in "lesser spec' cars---which again we see and have ample times and results that say some of the top Finns can go damn near as fast and finsih/win in a MkII Escort or their own BMW----
did you not see the whole thing a couple of years ago where WRC Works Suzuki driver

Toni Gardemeister was faster against WRC rival Dani Sordo driving his works Citroen when he was in his RWD BMW than in his works Suzuki?

NOBODY here, is close to Sordo's speed and neither was gardemeister---but he was closer in sec/mi in his personal F-cup car than his works car...


Surely you cannot expect us to believe that the speeds we see Pastrami or Mirra or whoever here is WRC level? well we've seen club cars in Finland at the speeds that'd be near 20th place.
So RELATIVELY SPEAKING, we're slow. VERY slow relative to clubbies elsewhere.


What's the resistance to that thought?
Is it a PERSONAL affront?
>

Have you ever seen in person a district level club event in say UK, Sweden or Finland?

Then what do you base your opinions on, and why do you sound so defensive?

(I really don't know why everybody wants to imagine "we're" "fast", I don't care myself and i take the speeds and skills I see THERE as a GOOD thing, an ENCOURAGING thing, a GOAL to shoot for....)
>
>
> BTW, Golves aren't even the most common in the US
> rally scene anymore...
> Oregon entry
> 4 rabbits -- don't know where 4 running rally
> rabbits came from ???
> 3 mk2 golves
> 3 Focuses
> 3 Honda CRX
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> __________-
>
>
>
>
>
>

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

John you are answering your own questions. FWD cars dominate because that is what the fast drivers are in. And since no one is beating them in some other faster car there is no need to go out and spend money on some expensive trick parts that are used by fast guys in Europe.

Lets create an example competitor. Lets say I am an outsider that is looking to get into rally. I goto Sno*Drift this year. I see that on the 2wd podium are a Focus, and 2 Golfs. The first place golf wins by over 20 minutes. Makes a strong case for buying one of those cars and running it. And if I goto more rallies and see that this distribution is fairly consistent the case gets stronger.

Now my this potential competitor starts to look around on the internet and finds that FWD cars are available fairly cheap. Or they could build some oddball car that some guy on the internet told them would be fast. But man he is convinced that it is fast. Yet he can't provide any results from any of the races that the competitor plans on attending of these car dominating.

My point about the 15-20 year old cars which you failed to understand or looked past. Was that Ben the OP on this thread has a fully prepared rally car that could go get a top 3 result at a national rally. Maybe he should go drive the thing rather than build another car old or new.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/05/2010 12:52PM by Andrew_Frick.

Golfs are great rally cars because they force a person to not only drive, but also you have to learn to be a mechanic to own one.

It's the following and brand loyalty more than anything. VW fans tend to get into things like rallycross and then rallying more than other marquees when it comes to 2WD.

There hasn't been any specific 2WD car that's ever really dominated in the US. Jardevall's 740, Hurst's Mustang, Utecht's Omni, Fuller's Golf, Lauchlin's SRT4, Duplessis' Golf, Lane's 240, Havas' RX7, Havas in the Civic, etc.

---

Grant Hughes

Ok comparing stage times in Finland by a Finn against a tarmac specialist in a car that in those types of stages doesnt have advatage is pretty mute. I would like to See Toni in that M3 do the same in a stage for example in Portugal, or Walles where its narrower and much more twisty. And do you think, Toni could do anything against Sordito in Catalunya?

Now as far as a Gr F against a Gr N, again, in Finland its ok, but what about other types of stages? In that case why dont we compare Delecour and Panizi in the 306 Maxi back in the day. They could walk McRae and Sainz in the WRC's, but only on the tighter twisty tar.

And as far as FWD vs RWD, well its pretty obvious which one has the advantage on loose surfaces. Its pure physics.

John, I am not being defensive or silly. I agree with Andrew Frick on this....It is not the car that dominates, it is the driver. Duplessis would still be winning if he were in a geo metro street car.


Andrew_Frick Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> John you are answering your own questions. FWD
> cars dominate because that is what the fast
> drivers are in. And since no one is beating them
> in some other faster car there is no need to go
> out and spend money on some expensive trick parts
> that are used by fast guys in Europe.


Comparing Group F guys to Group N speeds is no different than comparing Group 2 guys to PGT or Super production. Duplessis beats half the SP field even on events with stages where average speeds are close to 80mph for the top guys.


The US rally teams have been measured directly by international competitors many times in the not-so-distant past right here in the US and have not been found wanting...


> (I really don't know why everybody wants to imagine "we're" "fast", I don't
> care myself and i take the speeds and skills I see THERE as a GOOD
> thing, an ENCOURAGING thing, a GOAL to shoot for....)

I don't know why you keep imagining that everyone here is "slow". Sure, there are some people driving slower than some others could drive the service van down a stage but, the fast guys are fast. The biggest difference i see is the depth of the field. If only 20% of the field is fast then you have 10 drivers going fast at a 50 car event. 40 cars at a 200 car event. AND, maybe through self-selection, more slow drivers are weeded out of places with 200 car fields so that maybe 30% or even 50% of the drivers are fast (60 to 100 cars in a d200 car field).

---

____________________________________________________________-

One. Class -- 2WD

www.quantumrallysport.com

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Quantum-Rally-Sport/281129179600?ref=nf

SteelSolutions Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What about nissan 240!!!! I think its being way
> over looked for rally the damn fast
> with a sr20det tons of room after the swap i mean
> a clean foot of front bay for
> inter cooler and radiator.
>
> the sr20det is cheap and the shit stock! 2000
> bucks would get you 3 trannys and 2
> good motors. they make 300 hp before you mess with
> anything in the motor. and make
> 205hp stock. They are large trailing arms and
> replacement 4130 ones on ebay and
> reinforce the front trailing mounts. Just a
> thought i have looked at the car a lot
> and for a cheap rally car id say hell ya theres
> even wilwood break adapters for
> cheap.
>
> http://www.tssfab.us/ eBay Store
>

Speaking of which, this
http://edmonton.kijiji.ca/c-cars-vehicles-cars-1990-Nissan-240SX-Coupe-2-door-W0QQAdIdZ203065911
might make a nice rally shell, for someone so inclined...

Why a Golf?

-Its cheap to get a base car in decent shape (mk3s can be had for under 1K now)
-Plenty parts/cars in junkyards and on forums
-Bodies are solid (Now that we are building an SER believe me I know!)
-Interchangeability between different bodies (easy motor/tranny swaps etc)
-Guys like Duplesis, Wimpey, Burress, Bottles all proved they could be competitive even OA
-Easy to work on (Grant is right about learning to be a mechanic)
-We never got the GSI, 205, Saxo, Clio etc...
-cult following
- We are not limited with Homologation

---

rally gods would turn in their graves if they ever knew Lada's were now part of EU rallying!!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/07/2010 03:15AM by turoc.

turoc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why a Golf?
>
> -Its cheap to get a base car in decent shape (mk3s
> can be had for under 1K now)
> -Plenty parts/cars in junkyards and on forums
> -Bodies are solid (Now that we are building an SER
> believe me I know!)
> -Interchangeability between different bodies (easy
> motor/tranny swaps etc)
> -Guys like Duplesis, Wimpey, Burress, Bottles all
> proved they could be competitive even OA
> -Easy to work on (Grant is right about learning to
> be a mechanic)
> -We never got the GSI, 205, Saxo, Clio etc...
> -cult following
> - We are not limited with Homologation
>
>
>
What is the current price for a VW close ratio gear set, a decent final drive and a good clutch plate LSD--and labor to install them?

What about unbreakable CVs and axles?

How about the same for the Nissans?


And the Focus that Ben has, what do those parts cost?



>
>
> Edited 1 times. Last edit at May 7, 2010 by
> turoc.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/07/2010 06:32AM by john vanlandingham.

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> What is the current price for a VW close ratio
> gear set, a decent final drive and a good clutch
> plate LSD--and labor to install them?
>
> What about unbreakable CVs and axles?
>
> How about the same for the Nissans?
>
>
> And the Focus that Ben has, what do those parts
> cost?
>

Non of those parts are needed to set fast overall times in the US, so window shopping for those parts is irrelevant.

To answer your question. With the current Greek financial melt down a close ratio gear set with a final drive can be had to for around $2,500 for the focus. If you just want a final drive they are around $800. And non junk yard plated diff like KAAZ is basically the same price no matter what car you buy it for.

Andrew_Frick Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> None of those parts are needed to set fast overall
> times in the US, so window shopping for those
> parts is irrelevant.
>
> To answer your question. With the current Greek
> financial melt down a close ratio gear set with a
> final drive can be had to for around $2,500 for
> the focus. If you just want a final drive they
> are around $800. And non junk yard plated diff
> like KAAZ is basically the same price no matter
> what car you buy it for.
>



Ding Ding Ding. The guys going fast in fwd crap boxes are just running:
1) a plated diff (or spool-SRT4) -- same price regardless of application
2) a lower Final Drive--anywhere from $350 to $800 for most fwd cars
Labor to install both is the same for basically all FWD cars.
3) Stock or frankenstock axles---nothing indestructo-fancy needed for the relatively low HP output cars. Not sure what the SRT4s run.
4) Cars that are prepped to be RELIABLE


Unless a bunch of fast drivers start showing up in faster equipment, a well driven, low hp, stockish, warmed over, fwd, crapbox can take podium finishes.


I would love to see events with 20 well driven 300+hp 2wd cars scaring the bejeesus out of the Super Production drivers and most of the Open class field at well-subscribed National events. Right now, there are only a few drivers doing that and none of them are driving anything resembling the formula preached here: i.e. Big fancy custom brakes, proper geometry custom rear suspension (for RWD of course because fwd couldn't possibly get you to the top), proper gearbox bits, etc.

---

____________________________________________________________-

One. Class -- 2WD

www.quantumrallysport.com

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Quantum-Rally-Sport/281129179600?ref=nf

All I know is the Honda prices for those parts and from what I've bought and or researched these are the prices.

Dogbox 6sp with choice of FD $3999
Dogbox GrN 5sp and FD $4500

Close ratio syncro set, $900-2500 depending on brand

Final drives from 4.76 all the way to 6.33 - $499-$750

Quaife diff - $900
Kaaz diff - $800

Halfshafts, they go from $150 OE replacements, $600 (800hp drag) to 3500euro Pankle units.