Dual Masters w/ Stock Calipers - worthwhile?

I'm in the research/planning (aka daydreaming) phase of building my first car.

My goal is to come up with a plan for a reasonably performing and fun car, without getting stuck in the "building the ultimate rally car" trap that I hear being talked about.

When it comes to brakes, it feels like I've only seen folks take these approaches:
1. Leave the entire system basically stock.
2. Leave the ends (calipers, MC) stock, but reroute all the lines, add a prop valve, etc.
3. Completely revamp the entire system, better calipers, dual masters, etc.

#1 seems the most reasonable for my case, since the civic's brake lines are already routed inside the car, and there's no silly diagonal ABS to get rid of. With those points in mind, #2 seems like a waste of time and money, and #3 is getting dangerously close to the "ultimate rally car" thing.

But-

What about keeping the stock calipers (single piston dealies), but plumbing in a dual master setup? Doing that, I get a good way to get rid of the power brakes (better than just unhooking the booster), and the meaningful adjustability of the dual masters.

Or am I just going to give myself another knob to twiddle when I should instead focus on driving the damn car?

---

KF7RWG
http://www.utahrallygroup.com

Without taking time to look I thought Honda used a dual diagonal braking system?

I always used the stock booster on NA cars.

Does it have disc or drum in the back? Honda drum brakes are pretty small. Putting in a prop valve might be a waste of time without having real brakes to bias.

Find out what Cody Crane has on his CRX and that should be good enough.

heymagic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Without taking time to look I thought Honda used a
> dual diagonal braking system?
>
> I always used the stock booster on NA cars.
>
> Does it have disc or drum in the back? Honda drum
> brakes are pretty small. Putting in a prop valve
> might be a waste of time without having real
> brakes to bias.
>
> Find out what Cody Crane has on his CRX and that
> should be good enough.

Don't think it's diagonal on the old ones, but I'm not 100% sure either.

It's got drums right now, but have most of the bits already to put discs on the back - discs are definitely in the plan before it sees the stages.

Good point on whatever Cody's running - after meeting him briefly at ID last year I'd be willing to guess it's along the line of "don't screw with it and just drive the car" - but it was a brief meeting so who knows.

---

KF7RWG
http://www.utahrallygroup.com

Aaron Luptak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm in the research/planning (aka daydreaming)
> phase of building my first car.
>
> My goal is to come up with a plan for a reasonably
> performing and fun car, without getting stuck in
> the "building the ultimate rally car" trap that I
> hear being talked about.


What you hear is a result of what you are doing in the above intro.

I take the phrase "stuck in the building the ultimate rally car trap" personally because it has been pussily hinted by some assholes that I've "talked guys into building Ultimate spec car' that they don't finish.


Give you a big hint having watched close up 5 guys close up NOT finsih cars I have spent LOTS of time helping and another few finish same or near same spec cars: whatever it is that leads to guys getting distracted and leaving off finishing their cars when they are down to say hooking up brake lines and fuel hoses...IT IS INSIDE YOUR HEAD.



>
> When it comes to brakes, it feels like I've only
> seen folks take these approaches:
> 1. Leave the entire system basically stock.
> 2. Leave the ends (calipers, MC) stock, but
> reroute all the lines, add a prop valve, etc.
> 3. Completely revamp the entire system, better
> calipers, dual masters, etc.
>
> #1 seems the most reasonable for my case, since
> the civic's brake lines are already routed inside
> the car, and there's no silly diagonal ABS to get
> rid of. With those points in mind, #2 seems like
> a waste of time and money, and #3 is getting
> dangerously close to the "ultimate rally car"
> thing.

Wrong.
Brakes are the most important system in the car, not as the REAL ultimate car guys, the guy nobody----but me----criticizes for wasting 3-4 times what they should on a TURBO 4WHEEL DRIVE Mitsuburu or SubuBitchy the 4wheel drive or the turbo.
Good big strong brakes, are not some ULTIMATE TRICK PART, the are a competitive secret that almost nobody understands how vital they are to the overall performance on stage..

Anybody who suggests that really good brakes---and the driver applying serious and sytematic time learning to use the brakes----is talking dooo-dooo..


Answer me this: why is it "getting dangerously close to that..." thing when somebody suggests brakes sized and intended top work on a Group2 car, yet no mention when the Blue Sububishtchy guys spend a couple of Thousand Bucks getting the GpN stuff so they can use 15" wheels---since the stock stuff is toooo huge??


>
> But-
>
> What about keeping the stock calipers (single
> piston dealies), but plumbing in a dual master
> setup? Doing that, I get a good way to get rid of
> the power brakes (better than just unhooking the
> booster), and the meaningful adjustability of the
> dual masters.
>
> Or am I just going to give myself another knob to
> twiddle when I should instead focus on driving the
> damn car?

No you're thinking correct since you haven't thought about altering balance f/r coarsely with caliper and disc size, OK do something with the master sizing f/r and the fine adjustment with balance bar


But since you're just daydreaming you might benefit more now by thinking and actually addressing the things posed as questions, the answers of which might point to some essential absurdities in "what everybody says".
So that when you eventually decide you might possibly seriously think about beginning to start planning to commence building.....you will have filtered out the "conventional wisdom" which is just so much hot air.


That guy Everybody is often full of shit cause he's just talking and OFTEN HAS NEVER DONE OR EXPERIENCED the thing he's giving warnings about.
>
>

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

If you go to drums, you will need a larger master to make up for the extra fluid you're pressing in the rear. You will need a "limiting valve" (like that JVL?) for the rears. On Hondas with drums, the rears have about 50/50 brake pressure. When you swap to discs you will have more pressure than you need in the rears. This can be fixed with an OEM 40/40 limiting valve from an SI model.

I don't remember the older cars having brakes inside the car. I used to own a 1990 standard hatch but I never pimped it out so I never checked the routing of the brake lines. However, if you go with the rear disc conversion, you're already messing with the lines and changing the stock limiting valve, so might as well find a way to make it an H style if it was an X type to start.

This is a picture of your brake lines.


Take those two lines that head back and make it one. Run them into a T where they split to either side. Throw in your limiting valve and then hydro handbrake in that line. It's going to be more of a pain in the butt, but you will be glad you went a proper way instead of some half assed stock setup.

BillyElliot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you go to drums, you will need a larger master
> to make up for the extra fluid you're pressing in
> the rear. You will need a "limiting valve" (like
> that JVL?) for the rears. On Hondas with drums,
> the rears have about 50/50 brake pressure. When
> you swap to discs you will have more pressure than
> you need in the rears. This can be fixed with an
> OEM 40/40 limiting valve from an SI model.
>
> I don't remember the older cars having brakes
> inside the car. I used to own a 1990 standard
> hatch but I never pimped it out so I never checked
> the routing of the brake lines. However, if you
> go with the rear disc conversion, you're already
> messing with the lines and changing the stock
> limiting valve, so might as well find a way to
> make it an H style if it was an X type to start.
>
> This is a picture of your brake lines.
>
>
> Take those two lines that head back and make it
> one. Run them into a T where they split to either
> side. Throw in your limiting valve and then hydro
> handbrake in that line. It's going to be more of
> a pain in the butt, but you will be glad you went
> a proper way instead of some half assed stock
> setup.

That's just the thing - what you've described right there sounds exactly like a halfassed stock setup. What exactly does it gain over a truly stock setup? A hydro handbrake and a marginally useful way to make the rears less effective? I'll leave it stock (aside from changing the OEM prop valve to match the rears) rather than do that.

---

KF7RWG
http://www.utahrallygroup.com

John-

Thanks for the insight. Good point that the unfinished cars have very little to do with the spec of the car, and a whole lot to do with those doing (or not doing, as the case may be) the work.

In the end, it's probably a moot point, because although I've got most of the rear disk brake parts, I don't have the calipers - everybody wants $80/each for rebuilt ones, junkyards here charge way too much IMO, so it's probably not a huge stretch on top of that do get into a good brake setup.

Also:
"when you eventually decide you might possibly seriously think about beginning to start planning to commence building"

genius - sounds familiar.

thanks again!

---

KF7RWG
http://www.utahrallygroup.com

Aaron, my default gravel caliper is Volvo 240 cause it's pistons are 1.5"/38mm and that is a good step bigger than most rear calipers of the size we want.
Also it's common as dirt and cost $7.50 at my Pull-a-part.
All kinds of good spec pads are available.

They're iron but who cares, they'll take a pounding---thats more important for us mere mortals.
A little adaptor is a snap[ to make.
I've used them on Mitsubishi Colts, 510s, Saab 99 and 900, my own Saab V4, Mazda RX3, Corollas, and oddly even on Volvos.

$7.50 and more than enough power---might not need a limiter.


Billy isn't quite right on the drum vs disc pressure thing.
Drum shoes "self actuate"---in other words the shoes get pulled into contact by the drum, so they "need" less pressure. They also TEND to have a shit-ton of shoe area.
Discs require more pressure
Typically you'll see a stock reducer on cars with front discs---which need high pressure---and rear drums.
Some better cars---Saab springs to mind---don't have a reducer when they use 4 wheel discs.

But that's for ROAD usage. We're on high speed gravel,. so we need or want a bit more rear brakes---no "rear" balance, but a bit more so we can lock rear with the foot and a twitch, but no so that it interferes with straight decel....
BRAKING IN A STRAIGHT LINE is a skill most are very very very poor at so we want the car to slow down we need it to be mostly STABLE if that's what we want, and it IS what we want.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

It's not a half assed setup at all if you want to go with a hydro hand brake. You'll have to find a dual master hand brake to work with the dual lines going to the rear if you don't make it an H pattern.

If you don't want the hand brake, then switch to the SI prop valve, SI rear brakes and SI master and call it a day. All OEM, all plug and play. But most guys do a rear disc swap and don't match with a proper 40/40 and master and have crap brakes. THAT is a ghetto way of doing it.

Well he's still going to have some sort of limiting/proportion valve that's in the car if he swaps to disc on top of the mis-matches brake master. ABS equipped Hondas still have that whole rat's nest limiter/prop meet up but they don't limit since all the proportioning is done in the ABS module. Don't remember any EF (pre 1992) hatch models that had ABS so a direct drop in probably doesn't exist.

those calipers look awesome, john - any reason/preference to lean towards ATE or girling? Quick glance at tirerack shows big price difference for the higher end Hawk pads - $55 for girling vs. $120 for ATE.

will definitely take a look next time I visit one of the yards here - looks like the one I normally go to wants $19 for a brake caliper...

should I be looking for a set of volvo fronts as well?

I assume I'll be wanting bigger/thicker rotors too? stock-ish bits I'd end up with would be 9.5" vented front, 9.4" solid rear.

---

KF7RWG
http://www.utahrallygroup.com

bottom line is that I had it stuck in my head that I needed to be spending $$$$$ on wilwoods/stoptechs/etc to improve my brake setup.

looks like, using the volvo calipers, can get away for much cheaper than that.

This would be soooo much easier if I could figure out what question I was really trying to ask first, before asking something that will eventually get me there.

---

KF7RWG
http://www.utahrallygroup.com

Aaron Luptak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> bottom line is that I had it stuck in my head that
> I needed to be spending $$$$$ on
> wilwoods/stoptechs/etc to improve my brake setup.
>
> looks like, using the volvo calipers, can get away
> for much cheaper than that.
>
> This would be soooo much easier if I could figure
> out what question I was really trying to ask
> first, before asking something that will
> eventually get me there.


It ask the right questions is hard.
I ask you to answer NOW! What is your front caliper piston diameter? Master?
Rear?

Gotta know these things...

You have to measure and remember shit. You have some chssy electronic "Very-nears"?
Get some.
Cheaper to measure and know than to listen to silly people who can't put a dimension to anything....
>
>

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

You probably don't need the Wilwood million dollar brake setup. You have a light car and that is a huge advantage. I'd bet John will be able to come up with some afordable easy stuff that will get the job done.

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I ask you to answer NOW! What is your front
> caliper piston diameter? Master?
> Rear?
>
> Gotta know these things...
Current setup:
ft: 2"
Master: 1"
rear: 3/4" (wheel cyl for drums)

If I was to do the 'normal' honda rear disc swap on my car:
ft: 2"
master 1"
rear 1.19"
(with '2040' prop valve)

The car that the rear discs came on was:
ft: 2.125"
master 13/16"
rear 1.19"
(with '2040' prop valve)


> You have to measure and remember shit. You have
> some chssy electronic "Very-nears"?
> Get some.

Seeing as my old-fashined very-nears (the squint, go crosseyed, then guess which line lines up kind) have evaporated, sounds like I oughtta.


> Cheaper to measure and know than to listen to
> silly people who can't put a dimension to
> anything....

It amazes me that people out there have put together entire compendiums of OEM swaybar sizes, but when asked if some particular control arms are the same length, no one can answer the question with any certainty.

---

KF7RWG
http://www.utahrallygroup.com