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Doivi Clarkinen
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Re: Dual Masters w/ Stock Calipers - worthwhile?
June 05, 2010 05:23PM
heymagic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You probably don't need the Wilwood million dollar
> brake setup.

Never mind that RX-7 Turbo II aluminum calipers are far superior to Wilwoods and you can probably buy them at the wrecking yard for the cash you have in your wallet right now.
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Re: Dual Masters w/ Stock Calipers - worthwhile?
June 05, 2010 11:22PM
Doivi Clarkinen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> heymagic Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > You probably don't need the Wilwood million
> dollar
> > brake setup.
>
> Never mind that RX-7 Turbo II aluminum calipers
> are far superior to Wilwoods

What is far superior about them?

You know i like them and have used them but it's mostly cause of the piston size for medium sized cars and their cost at $7.50 ea at Pull-a-part.



and you can probably
> buy them at the wrecking yard for the cash you
> have in your wallet right now.






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Re: Dual Masters w/ Stock Calipers - worthwhile?
June 06, 2010 07:32AM
john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Doivi Clarkinen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > heymagic Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > You probably don't need the Wilwood
> million
> > dollar
> > > brake setup.
> >
> > Never mind that RX-7 Turbo II aluminum
> calipers
> > are far superior to Wilwoods
>
> What is far superior about them?
>
>

Wilwood calipers ain't all that great, really. They are pretty flexy and have no dust boots (though you could argue those just catch fire anyway...) Also the external crossover tubes on most models are prone to damage and leaking as are the tiny little bleeders. They are just not really designed for the harsh environment of rally. The Mazda calipers are stffer, have internal crossovers, better bleeders, dust boots, and are $7.50 at Pick-a part.
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john vanlandingham
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Thisd is where things become more useful for planning
June 06, 2010 10:31AM
Doivi Clarkinen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> > What is far superior about them?
> >
> >
>
> Wilwood calipers ain't all that great, really.
> They are pretty flexy and have no dust boots
> (though you could argue those just catch fire
> anyway...) Also the external crossover tubes on
> most models are prone to damage and leaking as are
> the tiny little bleeders. They are just not
> really designed for the harsh environment of
> rally. The Mazda calipers are stffer, have
> internal crossovers, better bleeders, dust boots,
> and are $7.50 at Pick-a part.

You know what Dave, times have changed a bit.
I posit that FORMERLY the main problem with the Willwoods was a huge gap in the choices of piston sizes with nothing from the "too small for any front size of 4 x 1.375" right to the "too big for the cars the weight and speed we're working on 4 x 1.75"

Do you remember---I doubt it cause you were in last minute hectic gotta get it done mode and was working on somebody's Subie, but I recall cause I bet a nickle and won!!---I betcha a nickle ones what the piston sizes on the Sub-a-rat fronts (the ones I guess they call Group N size for fitting under 15" wheels), then after I won that I bet another nickle what the rear pistons sizes were and won that nickle too---never having measured the things?
Rememeber?
Remember the sizes of the pistons?

I do: (and you didn't---you even answered "why? they're what they are"--very annoyed at me asking silly stuff)

Fronts: 2x 1.5" or 38mm and 2 x 1.625" or 41,3mm
Rear 2 x 1.5 or 38mm

Rememeber the sizes on the black Pat Richard morphodite thing way back?

Fronts: 4 x 1.75
Rear: 4 x 1.75

Being the picky fucker on brakes that I am I've made a point to confirm piston sizes with my direct measure, or by checking with smart guys using the right stuff and I see the sizes used range from:
Escort MkII Gp4 : Front---4 x 1.5"............rear 2 x 2.0" limited down
VW Golf GTI, Kadett GSI, 3 door Cosworth, 4wd Sapphire, Volvo 240, Misterbitchi Gaylant, Sub-a-rat Le-gassy etc etc etc

front: 2 x 1.5 and 2 x 1.625 early like 88-90/91, later sometimes 4 x 1.625

Rears on those: 2x 1.5" or on the heavier cars 4 x 1.25".


So after seeing the same sizes on all these top level cars for damn, 21 years now, it slowly dawned on me that well maybe WE should be using sizes sorta like all those cars, and then maybe we'd have brakes we could use HARD and most importantly MODULATE controllably just short of lock up.

And it slowly dawned on me that maybe the constant reports of Willwoods being flexy was from people choosing calipers with the piston total area being WAY bigger than all those cars in the above list.

So imagine my joy when I saw just a couple of years ago that Willwood in the new FORGED Superlite series that they now have calipers in the 4 x 1.625 range.

And imagine my joy when I supplied the calipers with 4 x 1.625 to guys with both booster brakes on a street car and dual masters on a gravel car and both the guys reported "These are the best brakes i driven on and i can modulate them right at lock up point easily---and I've never had brakes I can do that with before."

And no reports of "flexy" calipers.


Also, imagine my joy when I saw a couple of weeks ago that Forged Superlites now have INTERNAL cross-over...

As for dust boots, gee I don't see them on top of the line AP, Alcon, Brembo.....
You're stretching things there a bit.


And Dave, although I like the Mazda calipers, their 4 x 36mm puts them a little small to get excited about, especially without a booster, and that's the conclusion after we did them on the front of Volvo with dual master.
STREET boys with booster report "They're OK", without, just not strong enough.

Maybe on lighter cars in the 1800-2200 lb range, then OK..






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Re: Thisd is where things become more useful for planning
June 06, 2010 04:09PM
john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Doivi Clarkinen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > > What is far superior about them?
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Wilwood calipers ain't all that great,
> really.
> > They are pretty flexy and have no dust boots
> > (though you could argue those just catch
> fire
> > anyway...) Also the external crossover tubes
> on
> > most models are prone to damage and leaking
> as are
> > the tiny little bleeders. They are just not
> > really designed for the harsh environment of
> > rally. The Mazda calipers are stffer, have
> > internal crossovers, better bleeders, dust
> boots,
> > and are $7.50 at Pick-a part.
>
> You know what Dave, times have changed a bit.
> I posit that FORMERLY the main problem with the
> Willwoods was a huge gap in the choices of piston
> sizes with nothing from the "too small for any
> front size of 4 x 1.375" right to the "too big for
> the cars the weight and speed we're working on 4 x
> 1.75"
>
> Do you remember---I doubt it cause you were in
> last minute hectic gotta get it done mode and was
> working on somebody's Subie, but I recall cause I
> bet a nickle and won!!---I betcha a nickle ones
> what the piston sizes on the Sub-a-rat fronts (the
> ones I guess they call Group N size for fitting
> under 15" wheels), then after I won that I bet
> another nickle what the rear pistons sizes were
> and won that nickle too---never having measured
> the things?
> Rememeber?
> Remember the sizes of the pistons?

None of my critcism of the Wilwood calipers had anything to do with piston sizes. I didn't even mention piston sizes.

>
> And it slowly dawned on me that maybe the constant
> reports of Willwoods being flexy was from people
> choosing calipers with the piston total area being
> WAY bigger than all those cars in the above list.

No, Wilwoods are flexy because they are flexy. That's why the sell their bidge bolt kits (for extra $$) to try to combat that because even they know they are flexy.

> So imagine my joy when I saw just a couple of
> years ago that Willwood in the new FORGED
> Superlite series that they now have calipers in
> the 4 x 1.625 range.
>
> And imagine my joy when I supplied the calipers
> with 4 x 1.625 to guys with both booster brakes on
> a street car and dual masters on a gravel car and
> both the guys reported "These are the best brakes
> i driven on and i can modulate them right at lock
> up point easily---and I've never had brakes I can
> do that with before."
>
> And no reports of "flexy" calipers.
>
>
> Also, imagine my joy when I saw a couple of weeks
> ago that Forged Superlites now have INTERNAL
> cross-over...

Now they are sounding pretty interesting. I haven't checked out their latest stuff.


> As for dust boots, gee I don't see them on top of
> the line AP, Alcon, Brembo.....
> You're stretching things there a bit.

I'm pretty sure I mentioned that dust boots just catch on fire anyway smiling smiley.


> And Dave, although I like the Mazda calipers,
> their 4 x 36mm puts them a little small to get
> excited about, especially without a booster, and
> that's the conclusion after we did them on the
> front of Volvo with dual master.
> STREET boys with booster report "They're OK",
> without, just not strong enough.
>
> Maybe on lighter cars in the 1800-2200 lb range,
> then OK..
>

Listen to you, you used to heavily push the Mazda calipers over the "expensive" store bought Wilwoods and others, now you've totally switched tunes. I guess anyone can change!
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Re: Dual Masters w/ Stock Calipers - worthwhile?
June 06, 2010 06:27PM
More importantly, JOHN said to Dave "Times have changed."


WHAT


JVL has acknowledged that time does move forward????


Mother of god (/supertroopers voice)



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john vanlandingham
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Re: Thisd is where things become more useful for planning
June 06, 2010 07:05PM
Doivi Clarkinen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> > Remember the sizes of the pistons?
>
> None of my critcism of the Wilwood calipers had
> anything to do with piston sizes. I didn't even
> mention piston sizes.

I know Dave, I was suggesting an expanation for why people report that Willwoods are "flexy". Oversized pistons feel mushy and mushy and flexy feel similar.
I suggested that because virtually nobody ever measures piston sizes, and that they'd just shove on calipers of any size and be puzzled why the brakes were weird.
Here's the part that you missed:

>
> >
> > And it slowly dawned on me that maybe the
> constant
> > reports of Willwoods being flexy was from
> people
> > choosing calipers with the piston total area
> being
> > WAY bigger than all those cars in the above
> list.

>

> No, Wilwoods are flexy because they are flexy.
> That's why the sell their bidge bolt kits (for
> extra $$) to try to combat that because even they
> know they are flexy.

Here's some NICE APs and they seem to have a bridge bolt---and they guy wants $800 a pair for used.....


Here's some with 2 bridge bolts..



What-evar....
>
> > So imagine my joy when I saw just a couple
> of
> > years ago that Willwood in the new FORGED
> > Superlite series that they now have calipers
> in
> > the 4 x 1.625 range.
> >
> > And imagine my joy when I supplied the
> calipers
> > with 4 x 1.625 to guys with both booster
> brakes on
> > a street car and dual masters on a gravel car
> and
> > both the guys reported "These are the best
> brakes
> > i driven on and i can modulate them right at
> lock
> > up point easily---and I've never had brakes I
> can
> > do that with before."
> >
> > And no reports of "flexy" calipers.
> >
> >
> > Also, imagine my joy when I saw a couple of
> weeks
> > ago that Forged Superlites now have INTERNAL
> > cross-over...
>
> Now they are sounding pretty interesting. I
> haven't checked out their latest stuff.
>
>
> > As for dust boots, gee I don't see them on
> top of
> > the line AP, Alcon, Brembo.....
> > You're stretching things there a bit.
>
> I'm pretty sure I mentioned that dust boots just
> catch on fire anyway .
>
>
> > And Dave, although I like the Mazda
> calipers,
> > their 4 x 36mm puts them a little small to
> get
> > excited about, especially without a booster,
> and
> > that's the conclusion after we did them on
> the
> > front of Volvo with dual master.
> > STREET boys with booster report "They're
> OK",
> > without, just not strong enough.
> >
> > Maybe on lighter cars in the 1800-2200 lb
> range,
> > then OK..
> >
>
> Listen to you, you used to heavily push the Mazda
> calipers over the "expensive" store bought
> Wilwoods and others, now you've totally switched
> tunes. I guess anyone can change!

You sure have....
And you might have noticed that almost nobody is in cars in the 1950-2250 lb range, that many start in cars in the 2860lb range, and they might just want some slightly bigger brakes.

So I still push the RX-7 ones IF they are a nice upgrade of some stock POS slidey pin caliper and IF we can get them in Pull-a-part, but you know what else seems to have changed, seems most guys are turning into consumers who will whine and complain if they're not handed every nut, bolt and washer to do a "reach out at arms length and drop it on" kit.


Another thing to bear in mind about the whole subject is seems everybody opts for Superlites which really is the middle grade caliper---there ARE presumably "nicer' Willwoods if a guys wants to pay 380+ bucks a side, but most don't seem to want to for some reason, at least not those i hear of...

Afterall, its hard to tell how blingy a 400 buck caliper is vs a 169 buck one when they're both boring flat black, and since appearance is all that really matters, why would anybody try the higher end ones when they look the same?







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Re: Dual Masters w/ Stock Calipers - worthwhile?
June 06, 2010 07:31PM
You'd be amazed how many people buy things that are more expensive solely because they are more expensive.



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Re: Dual Masters w/ Stock Calipers - worthwhile?
June 06, 2010 09:18PM
John,

The AP calipers you posted are far from "nice". Those are cheap cheap cheap units made for street upgrades and sandcast using lower quality aluminum and are of an old design. Those are not race calipers. And by looking at them they look like wet noodles in terms of stifness. You can go to a short track supplier and but AP short track race calipers for about 400 bux

As for the "willywood" calipers, well I know Bill Wood himself and dont want to bash his product but... its a unit made for a certain market and budget, with the short track crowd their biggest consumers. You dont see Willwood calipers in any type of pro racing. They all flex and create pad taper, and the biggest complaint is the constant rebuilds. Also their seal design is pretty basic therefore the calipers when hot create a lot of drag.

As for the piston sizes, its not a big secret or theory behind it, all that really matters is wheel torque. And you can go about that in 3 ways. Clamp load, effective radius, and friction coefiction. So throwing around piston sizes comparing them between setups without knowing all the other fractions of the equasion is shooting in the dark. And even if you have all the info on the m/c's, disc diameters, pad radial depth, and Mu, not all cars have the same CG height, weight transfer, anti-dive, spring rates, shock rebound... yadda yadda so the point is, if your caliper has small pistons, then get a smaller master or higher friction pads.

As finally the cross over pipes are really not an issue for leaks or crushes etc... For example the Evo Gr N setup uses a rear 4 pot brembo (same caliper used by Dallara in F3) with extranal cross over, and working in the business I have yet to hear of a DNF from caliper failure.

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Re: Dual Masters w/ Stock Calipers - worthwhile?
June 06, 2010 11:58PM
Paul, we are also working with a target market.
It appears that to some, even $169 a caliper is "big Bux".



And I agree, all the variables---the yada yada yada, or as we say in Swedish "blah-ha, blah-ha, blah-ha" (gotta have some fucking culture and learning, right!?) is all true, but like a lot of things the question is "Is it a SIGNIFICANT" factor?

And sure pads, leverage blah blah but the simple unalterable fact remains that for gravel rally cars of a certain weight and approx similar power./gearing/speed, at the highest levels I could find,and actuall measure, or ask people who could answwer, WRC and British, Swedish, Finnish nation winning level, there WAS an extremely obvious convergence of sizes.

Also, I am pointing this out because of the LACK of consideration of piston sizes by virtually everybody locally I have had contact with.
They simply slam on "Superlites" with 4 x 1.75 piston---even as we saw---on the rear---now that took some lack of thinking...

That's what was on the car when we got it" was the answer.


So like the various floating hat things which you've shown, sure they're neato-torpedo, but its nothing that the typical Rally-Anarchista would ever consider.


Dave Clark, for all his evident bitterness in his old age, was right---the $7.50 RX-7 caliper is a GOOD option for cars a certain weight or if they have some sorta booster..

The simple fact is due to a number of factors---imitation and "social group forming and reinforcement via "marker" language central among them---most in America are more interesting in mutual wanking and discussion of advanced driving techniques like Left Foot Braking, (that's a "social marker" a kinda code-word that you can say and some geezer responds with a "Oh yeah, man, THERE's NO WAY you can drive in the woods if you're NOT Left Foot Braking" so you instantly "recogise" a "kindred soul"---seriously this is a huge driving force in social interactions, and rally is above all, not a job but a social occasion) than doing a good job of boring fundamental skills like systematically learning and utilising max braking.


But right or wrong the Superlites with the "correct" size pistons work quite well and if i am picky about anything andI ain't that picky about that much, its the lousy brakes cars are saddled with -relative to what I made a living using...

I want "pretty damn good' suspension, quick accurate steering, and VERY GOOD BRAKES.

I have driven Sean Metcalfs car with them and they were excellent.
Driven Wyatt--a local Xratty boy's car with real good street tires, and they worked fine, no complains and I am picky...

Of course there are better calipers, but is the cost/benefit ratio, and the more important DOLLAR SPENT to LAUGH RETURN ratio in the fat part of the curve.


Obviously not...

And that's the point.








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Re: Thisd is where things become more useful for planning
June 07, 2010 08:58AM
john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Doivi Clarkinen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > > Remember the sizes of the pistons?
> >
> > None of my critcism of the Wilwood calipers
> had
> > anything to do with piston sizes. I didn't
> even
> > mention piston sizes.
>
> I know Dave, I was suggesting an expanation for
> why people report that Willwoods are "flexy".
> Oversized pistons feel mushy and mushy and flexy
> feel similar.
> I suggested that because virtually nobody ever
> measures piston sizes, and that they'd just shove
> on calipers of any size and be puzzled why the
> brakes were weird.
> Here's the part that you missed:

No, you're not gettin' what I'm sayin'. I don't mean Wilwoods FEEL flexy due to using the wrong piston sizes, I mean they ARE flexy. You can see them flex and twist right before your very eyes when someone mashes on the brakes. At least the older Superlite IIa's that I've dealt with. Maybe those newer forged things are better. Sounds a lot more attractive with the internal crossover.
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Re: Dual Masters w/ Stock Calipers - worthwhile?
June 07, 2010 02:59PM
I was wondering the same thing since I ripped out the brake lines from under my Mk2 Golf to run them inside.

Anyone have experience with dual masters and the stock 10.1" front brakes and rear discs on a Mk2 Golf? Or should I just the same setup as above but bone-stock master and line configuration (but inside), shut up and drive once I finish the car?

Back when I went road racing in a Mk2 Jetta, we ran Volvo 4 piston calipers up front and they worked quite well. I just don't remember how they were installed.

Thanks!
Chris
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Re: Dual Masters w/ Stock Calipers - worthwhile?
June 07, 2010 03:42PM
Mr. K Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anyone have experience with dual masters and the
> stock 10.1" front brakes and rear discs on a Mk2
> Golf?

My Mk2 golf with dual masters (very close but not exact)

Tilton 5/8" front master cyl
Corrodo G60 fronts
- 11" vented rotor
- 2.125" single piston caliper

Tilton 13/16" rear master cyl
Stock rears
- 8.9" solid rotor
- 1.5" single piston caliper

I have a bell crank style adjustment off the pedal pushrod that can be used for bias... whole thing was built for me by Cascade back before I had any idea or inkling of how to do things for myself. Has been pretty fantastic.





------------------------------------

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Cosworth
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Re: Dual Masters w/ Stock Calipers - worthwhile?
June 07, 2010 04:04PM
cblakely Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> My Mk2 golf with dual masters (very close but not
> exact)
>
> Tilton 5/8" front master cyl
> Corrodo G60 fronts
> - 11" vented rotor
> - 2.125" single piston caliper
>
> Tilton 13/16" rear master cyl
> Stock rears
> - 8.9" solid rotor
> - 1.5" single piston caliper
>
> I have a bell crank style adjustment off the pedal
> pushrod that can be used for bias... whole thing
> was built for me by Cascade back before I had any
> idea or inkling of how to do things for myself.
> Has been pretty fantastic.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------

That comes out to be 82% front if you're using the same pad friction. That seems waaaay to much front.
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Re: Dual Masters w/ Stock Calipers - worthwhile?
June 07, 2010 05:15PM
Cosworth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>Blah blah blah... (just edited out for space)


The above points are all very good.

>As finally the cross over pipes are really not an
> issue for leaks or crushes etc... For example the
> Evo Gr N setup uses a rear 4 pot brembo (same
> caliper used by Dallara in F3) with extranal cross
> over, and working in the business I have yet to
> hear of a DNF from caliper failure.
>

Apparently you don't rally on gravel? There are lots of stones flying around the wheels on gravel stage rallies. I've had plenty of crushed/bent/punctured/torn loose crossover pipes on Wilwoods, Brembos, and others, even with various methods of stone protection. Usually it's not too much of a problem on the fronts but the rears take a beating.



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