Recommended Alignment Settings for a FWD Car

BJosephD Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A friend of mine told me a great way to do a
> string alignment:
>
> 1. place four jackstands around the car. a couple
> feet beyond the bumbers.
> 2. tie a string on left and right side front to
> back.
> 3. measure out about 1' from the rear wheels and
> place the string at that length.
> 4. set the two fron jack stands at the same width
> as the rears, make sure the strings are
> parralell.
> 5. measure from the string to front and back of
> wheel, make adjustment to where the front is 1/8"
> further from the string.
> 6. roll car back a few feet, then forward. repeat
> steps 3-5.
>
> Does this sound right?

yes this is right, and i do it all the time.

However...don't think that your track width is the same front and rear.

you'll need to either measure the track width or figure it out yourself by measuring.

---

Chris

Do not use toe out on the rear, bad bad idea.

I ran 0 toe front and rear and about .5 deg neg camber in front 0 to .5 deg neg in rear.

As noted there is some play in the system so I made the error tend to negitive toe.

Toe out sucks in every way, just say no do not do it.

Gene's words are good. Set it and learn to drive it that one way. Do not mess with it. When starting there are many things that can be read into the way things felt, most of them wrong.

If using Michellen Tires try 24 psi all around to start. Silverstone, try 28 psi. If at the end of the stage hot the tires are over this lower to say 27 hot on the Michellen and 30 on the Silverstone hot, but remember to let the tires warm up on the next stage for about 1 mile before getting too aggressive with the slides etc. if you lowered the pressure, a flat is much slower then running 32 psi

---

In the long run reality always wins.

OK, thanks again!

Toe: 0 mm toe all the way around.

NO POSITIVE TOE!!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/12/2010 09:46PM by MikeColangelo.

Actually clicking off and reading the provided links will lead you to believe you do want Toe out in the front. (the info from the aussie, you know a non america so he must know how to rally 1,000 times better than any american )

"Caster is usually needed in understeering cars. For example the XU1 needed heaps 4.5Deg to eliminate the understeer on turn in. As a general rule 2.5 to 3 Deg Caster combined with 1.5 Neg Camber with 1.5mm toe out is a good starting point. "


That other principle setup i **think** has the numbers backwards, because there's no fucking way they are using 3 degrees of POSITIVE camber on tarmac. not gonna happen. so i suspect their 1mm of "tow in" is actually -1mm of toe in (just like the camber has to be -3 not 3) so they are using toe out as well.

Personally i'm running -1.8 front with 1/16" toe out and -1.4 rear zero toe.

I've used toe out in the rear at a number of rallies (due to shitty alignment guys in reno constantly claiming it can't be zeroed out!) It feel suicidal. you'll get into situations where the car is starting to spin out so you stand on the gas, this slows the spin out but doesn't stop it (initially) if you are lucky and the corner is long enough you'll save it.

do note that my rear spring rate is a little bit high, so using toe out combined with that = oversteerish, crazy oversteerish. i could while holding the throttle at a steady 30% on a slight uphill, gently turn the steering wheel and my back end would kick out (yes on a fwd) .. it was suicidally loose (but fun)


I Might be using a bit too much neg camber, but i'm using a 165 Wide tire (generally skinnier the tire you can go a lil more negative) and i get a healthy amount of body roll as well (by looking at pictures of my car) I don't really lock up my brakes that much so...


Also note i only have 10 rallies under my belt, and most of these other guys have a lot more, so if they disagree with me, i'm probably wrong... lol



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/12/2010 03:05PM by A1337STI.

After clicking on and reading the links I came to the determination that the guy may be called the Australian Rally Champion that never was for a reason. Too much trying to think shit through, too little driving.

I remember one group of guys once at our test facility here in Colorado. They'd do a lap, come in, change some stuff, do another, repeat until they found the ultimate setup. I assumed they were timing the laps. Thing is, until you can consistently run the exact same time every time with zero mistakes all that testing is really just determining what feels better to you at that moment.

I'm pretty confident that Derek could hop in the seat of any 2WD rally car and be right up there with the fastest guys in Max Attack so if you want an opinion of someone who is proven to be fast on US roads against US competition, listen to him. Quit worrying about all the piddly bullshit and drive. Scrub radius, blah, fucking, blah, blah, blah.

---

Grant Hughes

NoCoast Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> After clicking on and reading the links I came to
> the determination that the guy may be called the
> Australian Rally Champion that never was for a
> reason. Too much trying to think shit through,
> too little driving.
>
> I remember one group of guys once at our test
> facility here in Colorado. They'd do a lap, come
> in, change some stuff, do another, repeat until
> they found the ultimate setup. I assumed they
> were timing the laps. Thing is, until you can
> consistently run the exact same time every time
> with zero mistakes all that testing is really just
> determining what feels better to you at that
> moment.
>
> I'm pretty confident that Derek could hop in the
> seat of any 2WD rally car and be right up there
> with the fastest guys in Max Attack so if you want
> an opinion of someone who is proven to be fast on
> US roads against US competition, listen to him.
> Quit worrying about all the piddly bullshit and
> drive. Scrub radius, blah, fucking, blah, blah,
> blah.
>
> Grant Hughes
> www.nocoastmotorsports.net
> Denver, CO


I agree. Kinda absurd that we see and publish set ups from all sorts of works cars and they are amazingly similar numbers for a variety of cars and different drive set ups and wheelbases etc, and then we see one guy who is working so hard to prove he can find proof that ALL THESE WORKS cars are wrong by posting some obscure Aussie's opinion..
Myself i stick to believing what the overwhelming mass of data shows: not very much different than a standard road car, just a smidge more of normal.

And not worry, its worked good for years of driving, and makes sense...but oh the power of the Intra-webz..oi.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

My post was really only to show that this thinking:

"OUT on the front is wierd and only done in North America doubtless due to the incessant dogmatic claims of cone-squishers "



Is utter bullshit written by an arrogant washed up old man scared to death of change. Toe out is pretty common in Britain as well, I just can't link to that forum, you have to be signed in. I can post the link, but I had to sign in with a school email, as they dont take yahoo, gmail, msn, comcast, etc. No generic emails, to help with spam, I suppose.



I don't claim to be the oracle, like you seem to make me out as. I have never claimed to be amazing at driving. Hell, as we all know here, my car isn't done. But the one thing I can do is call people out when they look at the world in black and white.

While I'm in here...

My personal advice? Try toe in. Try toe out. Play with caster and camber. Play with rear toe in and camber. Change one thing at a time, maybe starting with everything neutral. When you find a setting you like, leave it alone. Don't change it again. As Grant said, just drive. Take time to build your car right, set it up, and then just leave it. No need to be fucking with settings all the time. Find one, and just adjust to that setting (so right it down!) when you need to correct/replace/unbend/etc. Find what works for YOU.

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

Dazed_Driver Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My post was really only to show that this
> thinking:
>
> "OUT on the front is wierd and only done in North
> America doubtless due to the incessant dogmatic
> claims of cone-squishers "
>
>
>
> Is utter bullshit written by an arrogant washed up
> old man scared to death of change. Toe out is
> pretty common in Britain as well, I just can't
> link to that forum, you have to be signed in. I
> can post the link, but I had to sign in with a
> school email, as they dont take yahoo, gmail, msn,
> comcast, etc. No generic emails, to help with
> spam, I suppose.

Well Tiiiimmmmay, there is of course some stupid people everywhere who want to try wierd shit out and American stupidity, by sheer volume, spreads where ever people read the language..
And tell me something, where does a snotty punk kid living with mommy and daddy get off calling ANYBODY ANYTHING?
You---in this sport---have done NOTHING, zero zilch, zip---except when your Daddy helps you it seems.
You're trying to push buttons but I don't CARE if a measly weasley never done nothing angry pipsqueak of a human calls me old, cause I am old, but washed up? What does that mean?
And afraid of change, that's plain stupid.


I know you come here merely to try vainly to "prove" how smart you think you are but you're not smart timmy, you're barely average and well behind in many areas in fact.
>
>
>
> I don't claim to be the oracle, like you seem to
> make me out as. I have never claimed to be amazing
> at driving. Hell, as we all know here, my car
> isn't done. But the one thing I can do is call
> people out when they look at the world in black
> and white.


I don't make you out as the "oracle' I make you out as "the Greek Chorus", wailing lamentations but adding nothing of value, and no humor even.
You state obvious things as if they were new, mistaking that while it may be new to a little boy like yourself, its old news to anybody who has been around a while...
You need to shut the fuck up and learn to show some respect for your superiors IN THIS SPORT.
When you've done a few years of top 10 national stage times, then your opinions and insights MAY be worth sharing, till then you ought to shut up and only ASK QUESTIONs, not challenge....
>
> While I'm in here...
>
> My personal advice? Try toe in. Try toe out. Play
> with caster and camber. Play with rear toe in and
> camber. Change one thing at a time, maybe starting
> with everything neutral. When you find a setting
> you like, leave it alone. Don't change it again.
> As Grant said, just drive. Take time to build your
> car right, set it up, and then just leave it. No
> need to be fucking with settings all the time.
> Find one, and just adjust to that setting (so
> right it down!) when you need to
> correct/replace/unbend/etc. Find what works for
> YOU.

Capt Obvious restating the obvious, very good!
Feel better?

Now go suck your thumb, baby, while patting yourself on the back...
>
> Feisty Peacock?
>
>

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Lol fuck off. You can get my respect when [if] you can earn it. Show me these Top 10 national stage times. I've seen some of your results, the only thing impressive about them is you finished. Nothing I've seen warrants the amount of arrogance and blatant denial you possess. I've heard rumor of a video of you in a canadian event going painfully slow. I wish I could find it.

Until you stop acting like a pompous ass, I will strive to point out every flaw you'll ever say. And it's not like I hardly know you. I use to hang out there a lot. I should have bought your shit and left, (hell, I should have just bought the DMS setup and been done with it) but there is something seductive about a heap of parts from rare rally cars from a time long past. The stories were entertaining. But the more I listened to the answers to things I would ask, there was always a reoccurring theme. Ford. I dont know, let's check a book. It was as if nothing anyone had ever done unless there was a blue oval on their hood meant anything. Anything that differed or was new was wrong and I was stupid for thinking it. There was only one way of doing everything.

You had my respect, and you lost it. You'll probably never get it back. I just wish I had lost it sooner.


So say what you want about me, I do not care. But the more you make shit up and portray it as fact, I'm going to go off and find evidence of you blowing smoke out of your ass, and post it up. It will get old, it will get tiring, and there's an easy way to stop it all. Actually, there are two. I very likely could be banned, proving that this really is the JVL club.

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

Dazed_Driver Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Show me these Top 10 national stage
> times.
>

On the advice of people with recent WRC experience I've set alignments to 2mm in front, 1mm in back, 1ish* neg camber all over, and like 4* caster on a car that ran consistently in RA's top 10 (as high as 3rd) within the last 2 years.

Dazed_Driver Wrote:

Blah blah blah whaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!

-------------------------------------------------------
>I would ask, there was always a
> reoccurring theme. Ford. I dont know, let's check
> a book. It was as if nothing anyone had ever done
> unless there was a blue oval on their hood meant
> anything. Anything that differed or was new was
> wrong and I was stupid for thinking it.


The proof that you are in fact grossly stupid is when I was busy working, you called and I asked my wife to see if it was important, you sadi it WAS important so she passed the phone to me to hear you ask about "Should i get carbon fiber hood scoops?"

This when the car was an empty roller shell then 5 years from completion.

But you again show you mental migetry when you, as other idiots have also done, think the refereal to Ford is some sort of DOGMA (look it up, I know your vocabulary is typical punk, therefore appallingly ignorant) when the purpose of referring to the very convenient Ford books is to establish a PROVEN, DOCUMENTED answer to, to anybody with an ounce of brains, work as a counterbalance to the "blind leading the Blind" situation where never-done-nothing asswipes advise other in what they "think".

Man you are dumb in a specially worrisome way....



There was
> only one way of doing everything.

There's TONS of ways, just that a LOT of them have been tried by every stupid newb who thinks they're smart, and if you weren't a particularly stupid PERSON, then you'd understand that...


blah blah
banned, proving that this
> really is the JVL club.

What an idiot
>
> Feisty Peacock?
>
>

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

My free advice for a fwd car:

FRONT:
Get it as close to 0-toe as possible
Get it to less than 1-degree of negative camber Any more than that and you just wear out the inside of the tires badly. the crown of the road is already working against you putting down poser on the straights.

With our alignment tools (Carpenter's square, tape measure, and calculator, anything within 1/16" of zero toe and we call it good. The compliance in the bushings is way more than the 1/16" or closer target we shoot for.

Toe out does indeed suck.
Too much camber also means lots of wheel spin and tire wear coming out onto the straights.



REAR:
Uh.... if you can't see that it is out (aka bent) without a tape measure, leave it alone...
Once bent, replace beam or stubs or both...

---

____________________________________________________________-

One. Class -- 2WD

www.quantumrallysport.com

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Quantum-Rally-Sport/281129179600?ref=nf

Carl S Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dazed_Driver Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Show me these Top 10 national stage
> > times.
> >
>
> On the advice of people with recent WRC experience
> I've set alignments to 2mm in front, 1mm in back,
> 1ish* neg camber all over, and like 4* caster on a
> car that ran consistently in RA's top 10 (as high
> as 3rd) within the last 2 years.


Carl is that 2mm "IN" in the front and 1mm "IN" in the back?

You never said whichaway in or aus?

---

Michael LeCompte

Innies!
Sorry.

Dazed_Driver
> My personal advice? Try toe in. Try toe out. Play
> with caster and camber. Play with rear toe in and
> camber. Change one thing at a time, maybe starting
> with everything neutral. When you find a setting
> you like, leave it alone. Don't change it again.
> As Grant said, just drive. Take time to build your
> car right, set it up, and then just leave it. No
> need to be fucking with settings all the time.
> Find one, and just adjust to that setting (so
> right it down!) when you need to
> correct/replace/unbend/etc. Find what works for

That is a very bad idea... At least if you have no to little experience, and especially if you try it between rallies, on different days, etc.

Just playing with tyre pressure between days mixes things up. Think about what messing about with alignment settings for an un-experienced guy will do. It'll be confusing at best...

I've been rallying for the better part of 10 years. About seven of these in the current Golf. I do 7-10 events a year, so I consider myself fairly experienced. Yet, I haven't - and won't be for the foreseeable future - been changing settings between every event to see what I liked. Not that I haven't been tweaking over the years, but it has been slow - very slow - to really be able rto make out the difference in alignment instead of just the stages, surfaces, changing weather, tires, etc.

And what did I start out with? Stock setup with the addition of some more camber (necessity for tarmac on street tires - class rules).
I have fiddled with other settings, and made changes. But the point is I took at least 4-5 events (some times years) between it to make damn sure that it was the car that needed changing.
All along my guide has been stuff like VW motorsports papers like the ones I linked to. It's about the same as John's Ford papers, and what's not to like? They ARE proven fast... they were doing stuff way faster than anyone of us in here, 10-15 years ago...

It sounds like the dislike of these papers really matches my stereotype about Americans, that it's worth more to try it yourself and fail miserably, than to listen to someone who has a proven track record and do maybe mediocre or... Gasp... GOOD?

Sorry to come over as really old world Yurupean, but I don't see the point against the Ford papers? Will you deny that they are proven (as are VW stuff etc.)? I not, why kill the messenger (John)?

---

Brgrds
Brian