Recommended Alignment Settings for a FWD Car

Using the VW papers for the VW's is great. Just like if you were building a road race car using the TRD papers for the Corolla. The TRD rally papers are a bit useless. I don't see the harm in taking advice from someone else who is faster then most. Someone proven to be able to drive. But when suggested, it gets shot down because its not published. I would rather take advice from someone who did well in the car I'm building, then a car that is more or less similar. The Ford papers are GREAT for Merkurs and Escort Mk1/2. I just would rather listen to someone who did well in a corolla for corolla advice. It's that simple.

My suspension setup thoughts were really based on my go karting and mtn biking experience. They might not transfer to rally cars. Although adjusting the rebound, compression, spring rates and tire pressures on the bikes... and caster, toe, and tire pressure on the go karts, I feel "use" to sensing the effects. However, like I said, whether or not that translates to a car, I'm not sure. But that's what I'm used to. So I plan on taking Bell's advice (he used to drive a corolla VERY fast) and leave it there. Although for a Nissan, without these papers, I would experiment. I'd find a road or large gravel area, and test. If all hell went loose, back to stock, and try again, the other way.

I don't see the problem with trying to find something that works for the driver. It's not so much that the Ford papers are wrong (which I don't think) its that other things can be right- when your talking a none Ford car.

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Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

NoCoast Wrote:
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> After clicking on and reading the links I came to
> the determination that the guy may be called the
> Australian Rally Champion that never was for a
> reason. Too much trying to think shit through,
> too little driving.
>
> I remember one group of guys once at our test
> facility here in Colorado. They'd do a lap, come
> in, change some stuff, do another, repeat until
> they found the ultimate setup. I assumed they
> were timing the laps. Thing is, until you can
> consistently run the exact same time every time
> with zero mistakes all that testing is really just
> determining what feels better to you at that
> moment.
>
> I'm pretty confident that Derek could hop in the
> seat of any 2WD rally car and be right up there
> with the fastest guys in Max Attack so if you want
> an opinion of someone who is proven to be fast on
> US roads against US competition, listen to him.
> Quit worrying about all the piddly bullshit and
> drive. Scrub radius, blah, fucking, blah, blah,
> blah.
>
> Grant Hughes
> www.nocoastmotorsports.net
> Denver, CO


I would think that the 'obscure Aussie' you guys are referring to has probably had just a little more experience in his 40 years of competition than most posting here.

The reason he never won the Australian Rally Championship is because he was busy competing in the WRC. When he was not competing in the WRC, he was busy running the WRC program for Hyundai in the Sthn Hemisphere, which including building the cars in his workshop down here in Australia (yes, believe it not they were FWD's too).

These cars were very competetive on the world stage, and Wayne was equally as competetive against his fellow drivers in identical cars, Kenneth Ericcson and Alister McRae (a few other non-Americans you probably havent heard of either).

Add to this two or three DECADES of running as a privateer, a works driver for Holden (GMH), building his own cars etc.......but you Yanks are obviously much smarter than the rest of the world and have much more experience, please continue ignoring everyone else is doing.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/13/2010 06:49AM by damo666.

Well, in the POS Saab I like to claim is a rally car, I have a smidge of toe in at the front, about 1.5neg camber and something like...what was it...maybe 3.5pos castor.

It's got upper/lower a-arms, so it's a weee bit different then the strut stuff.

the rear...like Josh said. If it looks bent, it's out of alignment. Throw a rock at it or replace it. your choice.

No idea if that's the right way to approach it. We're replacing the rear axle after NEFR...probably with one that's sleeved with something a little stronger. At that time, I'll likely "put" some toe-in and set camber to 0 with a porta-power and then wait for the next time I bend the shit out of it.

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She's screamn' fer eet!
Rallyho
Mike White
http://www.facebook.com/rallyhomotorsports

damo666 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I would think that the 'obscure Aussie' you guys
> are referring to has probably had just a little
> more experience in his 40 years of competition
> than most posting here.
>
> The reason he never won the Australian Rally
> Championship is because he was busy competing in
> the WRC. When he was not competing in the WRC, he
> was busy running the WRC program for Hyundai in
> the Sthn Hemisphere, which including building the
> cars in his workshop down here in Australia (yes,
> believe it not they were FWD's too).
>
> These cars were very competetive on the world
> stage, and Wayne was equally as competetive
> against his fellow drivers in identical cars,
> Kenneth Ericcson and Alister McRae (a few other
> non-Americans you probably havent heard of
> either).
>
> Add to this two or three DECADES of running as a
> privateer, a works driver for Holden (GMH),
> building his own cars etc.......but you Yanks are
> obviously much smarter than the rest of the world
> and have much more experience, please continue
> ignoring everyone else is doing.

Whoa. Struck a nerve there hey. Thanks though for some better background on him. Looking quickly at the links Timm posted all I saw was some guy talking about shit that was way beyond the ability of 99% of drivers to really notice and telling people to set cars up with toe out, which again goes against everything I've ever read, seen, or witnessed in a rally car.

So for you Subaru guys, you know what is adjustable in a Subaru right. Much more than most cars.
In Possum Bournes' biography, which is a great read, he talks about the change from a Group A to WRC spec car and how the ability to fine tune every aspect of the suspension as being the hugest factor/difference. I've seen people who haven't even driven in a rally yet worrying about things like eliminating bump steer so yeah, maybe I'm a little jaded.
And yes, I have heard of both the Swede Kenneth Eriksson and the Scot Alister McRae. I know a few Aussies and Kiwi's too. Helped arrange/find a rental for Andrew Hawkeswood over breakfast with him one year at Pike's Peak when his Evo was having issues getting through customs. Hiked through the deserts of Arizona with the crew of Sam Murray to spectate.
I would bet I am one of the few who has watched many episodes from the APRC and ARC. Last one was Scouts, haven't had a chance to watch Queensland yet though. Does seem that Simon Evans is walking away with it.
PS> If anyone wants the a link to download these, as well as some IRC, CRC, and other vids you can PM me and I'll send you the private link where I have them hosted.

---

Grant Hughes

Oh yeah, and welcome Damian!

---

Grant Hughes

Ya, and your toilet flushes backwards ....welcome to our little rathole!

One has to seperate what is good for very seasoned vet and a raw noob. Over here on the roads he will be running a very stockish G2 will hit 100mph (not kliks) on most stages at some point. A very neutral setup is the ticket for the first few races at least.

Personal preference, individual car prep, road surfaces, stock geometry all affect what settings work best. I like a car with a short wheelbase and a somewhat softer suspension. I hate 120 mph road and will generally make most guys look silly on twisty downhill stuff. We all have our spots to shine.

To really put suspension settings in perspective watch NASCAR some weekend. I used to crew one a Winston West car years ago. They have all the money and talent in the world and fight for every 10th of a second with settings. Lots of changes to barely eek out a car length on a straight away. Two team mates in identical cars with identical setups will have vastly different laptimes. And nowhere is it easier to see what happens with one small setting that is off. Total failure visable in 2 laps. It is somewhat relevant if you think about it.

The problem with using the old factory stuff from the 70s and 80s is that some much has changed. While it is a good place to start it is no longer gospel. Watching Rally Finnland last weekend had Juha K running again after many year layoff. His comment on camera was how much the suspension and brakes had changed in that period. He noted the car had no great power but handling was the key factor. He was running 7th for much of the weekend and finished 8th I think.

Dazed_Driver Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't see the problem with trying to find
> something that works for the driver. It's not so
> much that the Ford papers are wrong (which I don't
> think) its that other things can be right- when
> your talking a none Ford car.

Well - the point just is: John would most definitely never give you heat over posting stuff from other manufacturers, if it is intent on broadening the debate.
Hell, I just posted VWMS-papers, and you didn't see him flaming me right? So it's not fair to accuse him of shooting everything down.

However, if you state that you're here to start a fight (which you more or less did - though it was a little down the line), you will probably get it - he's not big on diplomacy :-).
The point being that you wanted a fight - and you got it - gotta make up your mind if you wanna have a debate, or a fight club. Both things are readily available depending on what you ask for :-).

As for Damon: Heh - I think you nailed it there... though to be fair, almost none of the US-guys on this board claims that they know everything about rallying. Far from it actually.
I've been coming here for years know, and most people here tend to look at mostly the scandinavians, but also other parts of the world where rallying is much more widespread, for sound advice on how a privateer may get the most bang for the buck.
So while it might sound a bit like american-know-it-all-ness with regards to Wayne, they really are a bunch of guys who are looking outside US borders for inspiration.

oh... and welcome! :-).

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Brgrds
Brian

Damian, welcome. Outta curiousity, how did you end up here?


Wildert: Yeah, well, he likes you! hahah No, but seriously, I just get really annoyed when I see him spout off shit to people asking for help that is OBVIOUSLY not true. It really bothers me to see people get a person's opinion as fact. IF you notice, I'll preface 90 percent of my advice with, in my experience, I may be wrong but, or something like that. Especially when I'm not 100 percent sure.

And besides, the Ford papers were written by a works team, as were the VW papers. Works teams that saw how the car was handling by a works driver. So when a works driver recommends some settings... I don't see the difference. It's just not published.

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/13/2010 02:41PM by Dazed_Driver.

At the top of the game there are a few odd ducks who get a lot of performance out of doing something different then the rest. I am that guy in some sail boat racing but I spent years sailing 350 days a year with coaches etc to get to that place.

When I started I looked at the fast people and copied them till I built a lot of experience and could go my own way.

The question on this thread is what should a new guy do. Josh and I, experienced (3 decades for me, many top times...) and very fast guys in his class said 0 toe.

Here is a little video of me, ask your self as a new driver how stable do you want your car? See 15 seconds in we get a bit loose and need to do some braking as well as hitting bumps all at the same time. This is a car set up for neutral stability with 0 to slightly neg toe. Notice I need to manage the rear end getting loose at that same time I need to brake and set up for the turn. Braking causes the rear end to get light and less stable.





Same thing at 1:13 seconds were we have a fast section into a slight kink left then an off camber hard right down hill. Good times there, do you really want a car that is oversteer happy right there?

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In the long run reality always wins.

Good thread, i think I'm even more confused about my alignment settings now than i have been before.

Wow josh you run less than -1 camber up front, wow.
may i ask what your car weight and spring rates are?

I definitely need to find a good test facility / area. Maybe when that place in so cal opens up.

I am in bellevue, bring the car up here to me, and we can set it up on the alignment machine after work one night. I would for sure go with a very neutral setup, as has been said. slight toe in front and rear, as much caster as you can get, and a little camber.

My merkur may be RWD, but I set it up with 1/8 toe in front and rear, and about -.75 camber, and 3.4 degrees caster. It is VERY easy to drive, and very neutral. A few seasoned FWD guys have driven it at speed and both cannot believe how easy it is to drive.

In our third rally (Idaho) we did 8th OA for Saturday, and I watched the in car and it looks like I am out for a Sunday drive. Just easy to drive.

"Easy" is very much the keyword...

I had a particular experience the first time I tried go-carting... a friend of mine is a very seasoned race driver in open wheelers, touring cars, carting, etc.
He's very good at making setups, etc.

He took me to try his very oooold cart (he was sorta in-between-racing cars ), on a track here in Denmark. It was a normal training day, so lots of other people there. The cart was a very old and somewhat worn cart. Frame was over the top for competitive means in the normal sense, rear axle was a 30 mm. job, where 50 mm. was the norm at the time. Untuned engine, might even be nearing time for an overhaul. And last - but most staggeringly - he was on ooold medium compound tires, at a time where EVERYBODY - and I mean EVERYBODY - was on soft compound tires.

First and foremost my friend was - as usual - fastest of anyone on the track at the day. Lots of experienced carters, most with much nicer equipment. Well, what does that say - he could for all you know be the next lost Michael Schumacher.

But when I tried the cart - it was the first time I sat in a proper go-cart, and over the course of a couple of training passes I managed to be able to compete with people in brand new carts, with 1 or 2 years of experience.
I don't consider myself some über Driving God so how could it be that I could compete in a very old go-cart on medium compound tires?
The answer was simple: It was setup to be VERY easy to drive. No struggling - just driving - that meant I had time to LEARN how to DRIVE a go-cart.

Easy is definitely the way to go...

---

Brgrds
Brian

Quote
wildert
"Easy" is very much the keyword...

I had a particular experience the first time I tried go-carting... a friend of mine is a very seasoned race driver in open wheelers, touring cars, carting, etc.
He's very good at making setups, etc.

He took me to try his very oooold cart (he was sorta in-between-racing cars ), on a track here in Denmark. It was a normal training day, so lots of other people there. The cart was a very old and somewhat worn cart. Frame was over the top for competitive means in the normal sense, rear axle was a 30 mm. job, where 50 mm. was the norm at the time. Untuned engine, might even be nearing time for an overhaul. And last - but most staggeringly - he was on ooold medium compound tires, at a time where EVERYBODY - and I mean EVERYBODY - was on soft compound tires.

First and foremost my friend was - as usual - fastest of anyone on the track at the day. Lots of experienced carters, most with much nicer equipment. Well, what does that say - he could for all you know be the next lost Michael Schumacher.

But when I tried the cart - it was the first time I sat in a proper go-cart, and over the course of a couple of training passes I managed to be able to compete with people in brand new carts, with 1 or 2 years of experience.
I don't consider myself some über Driving God so how could it be that I could compete in a very old go-cart on medium compound tires?
The answer was simple: It was setup to be VERY easy to drive. No struggling - just driving - that meant I had time to LEARN how to DRIVE a go-cart.

Easy is definitely the way to go...

It has always been the goal behind every single word I write on rally.


The problem with this thread, and inter-net in general, and Americans in particular is one string of words looks pretty much like another string of words, and while some people may believe in the Universal brotherhood of all working men and want justice for all, that doesn't mean all opinions are equal, or that all experience is equal so we have some people who may have had some extremely superficial fiddling around time with something in a unstructured and unmeasured way, thinking that means they have an opinion that means something worth sharing and defending.

Second, Americans of all the people in the world I have ever dealt with are the most emotionally immature and childish, and---as is inarguable from our murder statistics---- the least able by factors of 10 or 10 or 50 to control impulses, thus they frenzy at which the unusually stupid will argue and argue and twist when somebody has repeated suggested "Look these settings SEEM to be pretty much a set of settings that goes 'across space and time' since I have seen or asked and find that_____________, and __________, and _ _ _ and __________, and _________ and __________ fwd, rwd, AWD, strut car, double A arm car, front steer, rear steer etc etc all have a SET of SETTINGS about like____________.

Of course mentally retarded people who have attention span limited to three word phrases MISS ALL THE DETAILS after the first 3 words and MISS the words Recommendations, (probably because being immature and child-like their interactions are self-centered, and they want only what THEY want, not a broader interaction more "Whaaaaaaaaaa! Tell me this!" "Proven pretty darn good" and instead want to prove their wiener is GIANT!!!! and that they have some (vital, interesting relevant, important choose some word that they are mistaken about) they are burning to share---and argue about.

All reasonable discussion is thereby broken, fragmented and ultimately ruined when the noise generated by spoiled, immature whining imbeciles who cannot listen and do not comprehend RECOMMENDATIONS, followed by supplementary info that in much of the world, people understand that it is to ENCOURAGE understanding, not be an assertion of absolutes.

And of course anybody who has ever competed a couple of seasons---and paid any attention to what they and OTHER people were doing----would know that quite often people make some surprising good results DESPITE the machinery being all fucked up---to put a fine point: that at the extreme amateur level the shitty driving of the newb is far more of a variable factor than anything do-able to the vehicle....and than even at the World championship level good drivers/riders can "drive around" all sorts of problems.


Of course when one has immature, know-nothing, psychologically insecure people, it's not surprising that they miss the ENTIRE POINT of sharing information which is to help people see a bigger picture and the tiny details (and that is a lot of stuff) ie "Well this is a typical set of specs for almost any car on gravel, BUT you don't have anything adjustable on your POS except fawkin toe so give 'er about maybe that much and fawkin call it good, and don't fret too much, worry about....." and take that as challenge to their self-hood...
Stupid..
And predictable considering who/where/what...

My friend Tim used to rally a '91 Sentra (not the SE-R, just a 1.6 litre). It's been a few years, but IIRC we ran 1.5 degrees negative camber up front, 1 degree negative camber out back, 1/16" rear toe-in, and zero toe up front. Caster was about 4 degrees positive. I tried it with less negative camber at first, but the B13 chassis Sentras are notorious for losing camber and rolling the tires over.

Spring rates were 275 lb front, 225 lb rear, with remove-reservoir Leda's. I raised the front strut towers up by 1.5" and had the struts custom made to suit the longer travel we had. Stock there's only 3.25" to 3.5" of compression travel, and it's hard to keep these cars off the bump stops.

HTH,
Bob

Quote
A1337STI
Good thread, i think I'm even more confused about my alignment settings now than i have been before.

Wow josh you run less than -1 camber up front, wow.
may i ask what your car weight and spring rates are?

I definitely need to find a good test facility / area. Maybe when that place in so cal opens up.

Yes, we try to run less than 1 degree of camber up front but have in the past run upward of 3 degrees due to some bent parts.... Keep the tires FLAT on the gravel so you have grip to accelerate. Even with under 150hp, you will spin tires in a straight line on gravel. The problem is worse with a smaller contact patch from too much camber and it will show on the tires.

Weight
2340lb
~725lb each front wheel
~450lb each rear wheel

Spring rates:
225 lb/in front
165 lb/in rear

We started with higher rates 250 or 275 fronts and 185 or 190 rears and the softer is better for sure.