well....blew my transmission (stock, 117K miles on it) at Gorman this past weekend. Anyone got a spare suby tranny I can use for Prescott?

Does that equate to a DNF? Or just a couple missing teeth.

I was talking to Ray Hocker last night and he said they only had 5 dnfs I believe and were quite pleased.

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heymagic
Does that equate to a DNF? Or just a couple missing teeth.

I was talking to Ray Hocker last night and he said they only had 5 dnfs I believe and were quite pleased.

DNF.....not sure what damage was done, but I did more than lose a few teeth.

came into a very sandy corner, got the car rotated, shifted down into second, hit the gas and lifted the clutch. car took off for a second and then suddenly went to redline. had to force it out of 2nd, and once it was in neutral I couldn't do anything with it, can't even get it into reverse. so something major broke (you could hear it grinding when we were pushing the car onto the trailer).

I don't know enough about transmissions to diagnose it based just on that, but that's the situation. I was hoping we could at least get 1st or 3rd or something back, but no luck....

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Jon Burke

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heymagic
Does that equate to a DNF? Or just a couple missing teeth.

I was talking to Ray Hocker last night and he said they only had 5 dnfs I believe and were quite pleased.

DNF.....not sure what damage was done, but I did more than lose a few teeth.

came into a very sandy corner, got the car rotated, shifted down into second, hit the gas and lifted the clutch. car took off for a second and then suddenly went to redline. had to force it out of 2nd, and once it was in neutral I couldn't do anything with it, can't even get it into reverse. so something major broke (you could hear it grinding when we were pushing the car onto the trailer).

I don't know enough about transmissions to diagnose it based just on that, but that's the situation. I was hoping we could at least get 1st or 3rd or something back, but no luck....

I have years of trannie building experience, years.
The official or technical term, and I can say this even without stripping the tranny down, the term is:
You're fucked.
Technically it's you're tranny that's fucked, but ya know you coming from San Francisco it might be misconstrued for me to say "Yo, you're tranny is fucked'.
The best way to be un-fucked is to R&R tranny and pour cubic dollars into some empty cases.

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john vanlandingham

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Jon Burke

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heymagic
Does that equate to a DNF? Or just a couple missing teeth.

I was talking to Ray Hocker last night and he said they only had 5 dnfs I believe and were quite pleased.

DNF.....not sure what damage was done, but I did more than lose a few teeth.

came into a very sandy corner, got the car rotated, shifted down into second, hit the gas and lifted the clutch. car took off for a second and then suddenly went to redline. had to force it out of 2nd, and once it was in neutral I couldn't do anything with it, can't even get it into reverse. so something major broke (you could hear it grinding when we were pushing the car onto the trailer).

I don't know enough about transmissions to diagnose it based just on that, but that's the situation. I was hoping we could at least get 1st or 3rd or something back, but no luck....

I have years of trannie building experience, years.
The official or technical term, and I can say this even without stripping the tranny down, the term is:
You're fucked.
Technically it's you're tranny that's fucked, but ya know you coming from San Francisco it might be misconstrued for me to say "Yo, you're tranny is fucked'.
The best way to be un-fucked is to R&R tranny and pour cubic dollars into some empty cases.

yes, in San Francisco, saying "I blew my tranny this weekend" has a whole other meaning

I'm hoping Albins does their NASA Rally Sport contingency program again in January...then I'll be 25% less fucked.


but yes, I knew I was fucked as soon as I felt the tranny let go.

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Jon Burke

yes, in San Francisco, saying "I blew my tranny this weekend" has a whole other meaning

Trying to do that on stage would certainly result in missing teeth.

a little in-car for ya'll. this is the new stage at Gorman Ridge Rally.

I hear a 6 spd knocking on the door....

Bang for the buck, it's your best route.

$3-$4K you have a complete solution...transmission, bigger rear diff (and a clutched LSD), LSD front diff.

Put the 6 spd into the car, change the transmission fluid every once and a while, and forget about it.


Albins are SUPER nice, but you will need frequent tear downs/rebuilds. Plus you still need to think about diffs, halfshafts, etc.

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Do It Sidewayz
I hear a 6 spd knocking on the door....

Bang for the buck, it's your best route.

$3-$4K you have a complete solution...transmission, bigger rear diff (and a clutched LSD), LSD front diff.

Put the 6 spd into the car, change the transmission fluid every once and a while, and forget about it.


Albins are SUPER nice, but you will need frequent tear downs/rebuilds. Plus you still need to think about diffs, halfshafts, etc.

I've been thinking a lot about this and the thing about the 6speed is I'd be looking at new axles, driveshaft, knuckles, 5x114 HUBS, RIMS and BRAKE work as well. 6 speed swap isn't as easy as people make it sound. And yes, I know about the 2004 STI option, but at the end of the day,I'd pay all that money for used parts in 'who knows what' kind of condition.

I already have a good rear diff.

why would i I need to think about axles w/an Albins? A 5 speed (from anyone) would be plug and play. If I get a straight cut synchro box, it would need as much attention as I gave my stock 5 speed.

I'm considering a dogbox, but only because I have access to free professional instruction on how to drive it properly. The idea of learning how to tear a transmission down and rebuild it really appeals to me, and I have someone here that can help me do that as well.

If I wanted to do this 'on the cheap', I wouldn't be racing an AWD Subaru

There is no reason why with the 6 spd you need to go 5x114.3.

It does not matter what transmission you use. 04-07 or even JDM (JDM is better).

Atleast here there are LOTS of JDM swap kits available, which have everything you need.

You use your Front hubs....you can even use your front axles if you want. If you get a 6 spd which needs "male" axles, you get the stubs from Subaru or wreckers. Every Automatic Subaru made features the same stubs you need to use your "female" axles.

For the rear hubs, you get the STi rear hubs from an 04 sti, or jdm verion 7 or 8. this will require you to run the 2 pot rear brakes, but they are available and cheap.

Find a good "swap kit" and you get everything you need.

In Toronto, there are several JDM swap kits available for less than 4K Cdn. Includes the transmission, front and rear axles, rear diff, rear suspension cross member, Prop shaft, shifter, etc. Only thing you are missing is the rear hubs. But if you buy the "brembo" kits which include the hubs for cheap, and then sell the Brembo's to a street guy..you are laughing.


You use your 5 spd flywheel and clutch (assuming it holds your power).


6 spd swaps are easy


the reason you need to think about axles and diffs is because, BEFORE i blew up my 5 spd (which was a GOOD JDM box...with 4.44 drive, and good diffs). I did 3 things:

1. Broke complete teeth of a front diff ring gear....needed to be changed
2. SHEARED a rear half shaft....clean through
3. GRANADED a rear diff. Completely cleaned all the teeth off the ring gear, and pinion gear.

The front diff went at one event, and i fixed it. The rear half shaft happened at the next event, we changed it and continued. I then actually lost 3rd gear, and continued. Then busted up the rear diff...completely toast. When the transmission went, it blew a hole in the side of the transmission case, and took alot of other stuff with it.


You can build a strong 5 spd, but you'll find the next weakest link. Is it the front diff? is it the rear diff or axles? or is it the transfer gears in the transmission?


You can save some $$$ by using the smaller rear diff with the 6 spd....but i've seen this done and it lasted 3 stages before a rear half shaft broke.



Trust me! I was in your position a little over a year ago. I swore up and down that there was no need for a 6 spd. Then i worked out all the options, of rebuilding, paying for labour to rebuild (some things you cannot do yourself without tools), and also upgrading the other weak links.

The 6 spd won every time. I bought a "kit", swapped everything in one evening. I changed the fluids in the transmission and diff before the last event, and that's the only thing i've touched in 7 events.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/31/2010 12:06PM by Do It Sidewayz.

Jon, listen to Chris, he's been doing this stuff longer than you and in harder competition than you.
Learn from your betters.

a dog box is masturbatory foof at the club level.

A gearbox that works is what is needed...

Such a shame its 10 times more than a an excellent gearset for the RWD boys..
I hope you can guarantee everything is 10 times the fun...

10 times more John?
Compare what we're talking about here:
Let's take Chris's $4k number.

And let's look at my Merkur setup. Not exact numbers as I don't have those in front of me, but pretty damn close.
$650 - T-5 Z-spec transmission with good gear ratios
$100 - T5 Bellhousing
$150 - Driveshaft
$80 - Supra Diff - Used
$295 - Supra Diff Kit
$50 - Clutch cable adapter
$150 - Machine input shaft and replace bearing retainer with steel one

You can see where I'm going here. It's not ten times, it's maybe double to triple by the time your done. And yeah, parts of it can be 10 times the fun. Like when you're looking for upgrade parts, spare fenders, etc.
I now own both a Subaru rally car (open) and a Merkur rally car (Group 5). I think they are both equally fun in their own unique ways.

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NoCoast
10 times more John?
Compare what we're talking about here:
Let's take Chris's $4k number.

And let's look at my Merkur setup. Not exact numbers as I don't have those in front of me, but pretty damn close.
$650 - T-5 Z-spec transmission with good gear ratios
$100 - T5 Bellhousing
$150 - Driveshaft
$80 - Supra Diff - Used
$295 - Supra Diff Kit
$50 - Clutch cable adapter
$150 - Machine input shaft and replace bearing retainer with steel one

You can see where I'm going here. It's not ten times, it's maybe double to triple by the time your done. And yeah, parts of it can be 10 times the fun. Like when you're looking for upgrade parts, spare fenders, etc.
I now own both a Subaru rally car (open) and a Merkur rally car (Group 5). I think they are both equally fun in their own unique ways.

I said gear kit. $380 bucks all day.
T5 bellhousing $15
Driveshaft mods under 100.
$39-44 for front steel reatiner.
Machine nose zero..

That's presuming you start with a Ford unit, different mix with a GM T5 for the Volvo guys.

But the GEAR KIT is just $380..for the WC 2.95 gearkit


And equally fun, sure. Just one costs minimum 10 times more for stuff that lasts. And jumps to---if we believe Pat R---$14,000 for a "good" dog box gear kit....
For equal fun.

I always said forget the HP/torque curves and think of the dollar spent to laugh return curves.

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Do It Sidewayz
There is no reason why with the 6 spd you need to go 5x114.3.

It does not matter what transmission you use. 04-07 or even JDM (JDM is better).

Atleast here there are LOTS of JDM swap kits available, which have everything you need.

You use your Front hubs....you can even use your front axles if you want.
but if the axles are a weak point (like you mention below, what's the point of doing this?

If you get a 6 spd which needs "male" axles, you get the stubs from Subaru or wreckers. Every Automatic Subaru made features the same stubs you need to use your "female" axles.

For the rear hubs, you get the STi rear hubs from an 04 sti, or jdm verion 7 or 8. this will require you to run the 2 pot rear brakes, but they are available and cheap.
like I said, new hubs/knuckles, and different brakes...maybe its cheap, but this stuff starts adding up. 117K on my rear axles and 6 events....I'm not too concerned with them as a weak point.

Find a good "swap kit" and you get everything you need.

In Toronto, there are several JDM swap kits available for less than 4K Cdn. Includes the transmission, front and rear axles, rear diff, rear suspension cross member, Prop shaft, shifter, etc. Only thing you are missing is the rear hubs. But if you buy the "brembo" kits which include the hubs for cheap, and then sell the Brembo's to a street guy..you are laughing.


You use your 5 spd flywheel and clutch (assuming it holds your power).


6 spd swaps are easy


the reason you need to think about axles and diffs is because, BEFORE i blew up my 5 spd (which was a GOOD JDM box...with 4.44 drive, and good diffs). I did 3 things:

1. Broke complete teeth of a front diff ring gear....needed to be changed
2. SHEARED a rear half shaft....clean through
3. GRANADED a rear diff. Completely cleaned all the teeth off the ring gear, and pinion gear.
But everything brakes eventually. again, I've got 117K and 6+ events miles on my rear axles, no issues. I've gone through a few front CV joints as well, but never actually broken an axle. shit happens no matter what equipment you've got. You can't tell me nothing is going to break on a 6speed, especially a used one

The front diff went at one event, and i fixed it. The rear half shaft happened at the next event, we changed it and continued. I then actually lost 3rd gear, and continued. Then busted up the rear diff...completely toast. When the transmission went, it blew a hole in the side of the transmission case, and took alot of other stuff with it.


You can build a strong 5 spd, but you'll find the next weakest link. Is it the front diff? is it the rear diff or axles? or is it the transfer gears in the transmission?


You can save some $$$ by using the smaller rear diff with the 6 spd....but i've seen this done and it lasted 3 stages before a rear half shaft broke.
And I've gone a lot more than 3 stages on my new R160 Carbonetic diff (and 20kg center diff) with zero issues putting down 270wtq Is that just luck? my driving style? Obviously the diff will break eventually, but when? Who knows...but I don't think I'm ready to throw it out as of yet, or sell it for a loss. What I probably should have done, however, is upgraded the ring and pinion while it was out...


Trust me! I was in your position a little over a year ago. I swore up and down that there was no need for a 6 spd. Then i worked out all the options, of rebuilding, paying for labour to rebuild (some things you cannot do yourself without tools), and also upgrading the other weak links.

The 6 spd won every time. I bought a "kit", swapped everything in one evening. I changed the fluids in the transmission and diff before the last event, and that's the only thing i've touched in 7 events.
I'm not saying you're wrong or trying to argue with you, but my stock WRX tranny went 117K miles and 6 events with zero issues as well until now. That's a pretty good failure rate, IMO.

you make good points, I guess I'm just turned off by having to buy stuff to replace things I already have that are perfectly fine....(don't fix what ain't broke) and dealing with selling other stuff (brembo brakes, my brand new rear diff, etc).

Maybe if I had the same experiences you did (blowing through axles and differentials at an unacceptable rate) I'd be more apt to go this route.

I'm just not convinced that the 5spd is such a terrible drivetrain. If the axles and rear diff were so weak, they'd have given me a lot more trouble to date than they have already (IMO). And even if that changes down the line, there's plenty of upgrades available for WRX axles, ring and pinions, etc.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/31/2010 05:25PM by Jon Burke.

If you choose to run with the POS 3.54 final drive.. then the ring and pinion gears will last longer. You are going to want atleast 4.11, and those get a bit weaker.

The front axles are not much of a weak link, you will break them for other reasons than just shearing them. The STi axles are a bit bigger, so why not.

The Rear axles....well, put it this way. the STi axles are larger in EVERY dimension and they break... The R160 stuff is just physically smaller, and weaker.

I ran 4 events on my 5 spd with decent power, and 7 events with 2.5RS motor. Then stuff went

I know that possibly the 6 spd is more $$$ upfront, but in the long run i do feel it pays off, and as a privateer, i think it's better. More or less "set it and forget it". Go read far enough into Canadian Rally press releases, or watch the TV shows. You'll see Pat Richard toss in an OEM gearbox after his Dogbox goes for a dump....and i think i've heard him say a number of times "the OEM gearbox is a bit slower, but it's more reliable, and we'll finish"......that IMHO is worth it's weight in gold.

I know of 3 people personally, who are running 10 second quarter mile runs on OEM 6spds, and the only thing they have upgraded is the rear half shafts, everything else is OEM. They run Launch control, flat foot shift, etc.


Yes...everything is available for the 5 spd stuff...but it all still adds up.

Even an OEM gearset is $1,300 bucks...plus installation labour. With labour that's almost half the way to a 6 spd.

I would NOT be affraid of a "used" 6 spd. People need to be trying really hard to make it so that you don't want it.


You build the car, and you campaign the car yourself. Not a couple weeks ago you were fixing your motor, and no doubt you have other things you need to deal with Rally to Rally.

You deserve something that you can put in the car and more or less quit worrying about. Worry about the other stuff with the car, worry about driving, etc.


You are still learning alot, and you'll learn how to go faster and push harder. When you do this, you'll get harder on equipment....namely everything i've talked about.


Oh...and i haven't even talked about driving yet. an OEM 6-spd transmission i feel is faster. The ratios are much better than a 5 spd could ever be. Plus is just shifts so much nicer. The JDM boxes with the nicer 5th and 6th gear are even better than the USDM ones.

Ofcourse the choice is yours......i'm just trying to tell you...you sound exactly like i did about 16 months ago...now my story has completely changed.