Introductions - 82 Toyota Starlet

There's a few ways to look at stuff.
Cage is the largest time and money expense. Getting it out of the way first could help motivate to get onto stage.
It's also the one expense that you pretty much never recoup. I'd say nearly 0% of the cage expense is a factor in selling price. Whereas all the rest of the stuff adds to future selling price.
But, are you building to sell it eventually?

Then there's some of the basic stuff dealing with shell prep. If you have a shell mostly stripped with little rust, that'd be a great starting point.

A Merkur is still an easier car to start with in my opinion. A Volvo is still the best platform (for RWD) for privateers as they were made in such massive quantities for so many years that their parts supply should be less limited. A Starlet is still the coolest though.

Quote
NoCoast
But, are you building to sell it eventually?

Not as such, but I want to have that option available. Ie, get to a point where I make that decision. As a running Starlet with ~150hp will definitely sell for lot more around here than a stock Starlet of any condition. I might even make money at that point.

Quote

Then there's some of the basic stuff dealing with shell prep. If you have a shell mostly stripped with little rust, that'd be a great starting point.

I do, more or less.

Quote

A Merkur is still an easier car to start with in my opinion. A Volvo is still the best platform (for RWD) for privateers as they were made in such massive quantities for so many years that their parts supply should be less limited. A Starlet is still the coolest though.

I have a surplus of Starlet parts, so until I get to the point where I'm breaking them, its the cheapest starting point. I like the way the Starlet handles, more so even than the Merkur. Its not as fast, but it is more responsive. If I can find a cheap Volvo I might think about it. But finding a Volvo, at all, isn't that easy over here.

Quote
But finding a Volvo, at all, isn't that easy over here.

lol. Wait till John get's a load of this.

Quote
bw_krupp

I have a surplus of Starlet parts, so until I get to the point where I'm breaking them, its the cheapest starting point. I like the way the Starlet handles, more so even than the Merkur. Its not as fast, but it is more responsive. If I can find a cheap Volvo I might think about it. But finding a Volvo, at all, isn't that easy over here.

There's a BIG difference between what "feels" good playing around at slow speed on an open road with a stockish street car vs another stockish street car.

But you here are thinking about building a stage rally car and maybe even entering rally.

Look at the amount I stress wheelbase, and how much I push Xartties and Volvos TURBO cars.
There's reasons.
At the higher average speeds that the wide, smooth, straightish North American roads allow---or, if youre not going to get left miles behind, we could say demand, tyhe wheelbase at 102.7" for the Xratty and 104" for the 240 Volvo is a distinct advantage. The car being STABLE---until you turn the wheel----iswhat you want, wether you undersand it now---or only understand that when you build a short, nimble--in fact twitchy Starlet----which is blindingly terrifying to drive at 85mph to 110.

Further, with just a few extremely simple external bolt-ons you can have the amount of power delivered the way you can best use it and ENOUGH power from a stock motor, which of course costs nothing vs a 175 bhp 4AGE which would cost a lot--and which would either be low powered or if it makes any good peak HP will need a close ratio box to keep it sustained.....another massive expense.

You're in the PNW Xratty community, you know that there's excess bodies laying around for 100 bucks and if the one you have ain't reliable that's because somebody has kept up maintenance, not from some fundamental flaw.

So if you'rebound and detirmined toforever been satisfied driving just a little squirelly for 2-3 turns, and will never try to be competitive, build the Starlet.
But the trend in the roads chosen for Special Stages is against that car, and drastically and clearly points to longer cars.

Grant..and others...a log book is a history of the car and evidence that is was compliant at the time of issue. Nothing more. NASA accepts other logbooks with their rules, RA accepts other logbooks but the car mujst meet RA safety specs. As RA doesn't allow nonfamily engine swaps who is to say. It would get forwarded to the event stewards for review. Hardly worth taking a chance on. Pretty much every manufacturer has an engine that can be made to go fast.

On a local basis I would allow such a car and only worry that another competitor who got beaten by said car would protest.

As to the wheel base issue, I would much rather have a car that "danced" than a limo. Not everyone has the same preferences. My best results were in the RX-7 and the Datsun 210...and they were pretty good results btw.

Quote
heymagic
Grant..and others...a log book is a history of the car and evidence that is was compliant at the time of issue. Nothing more. NASA accepts other logbooks with their rules, RA accepts other logbooks but the car mujst meet RA safety specs. As RA doesn't allow nonfamily engine swaps who is to say. It would get forwarded to the event stewards for review. Hardly worth taking a chance on. Pretty much every manufacturer has an engine that can be made to go fast.

On a local basis I would allow such a car and only worry that another competitor who got beaten by said car would protest.

As to the wheel base issue, I would much rather have a car that "danced" than a limo. Not everyone has the same preferences. My best results were in the RX-7 and the Datsun 210...and they were pretty good results btw.

Yesn Gebne but a) we were in the woods and virtually everybody else had short things with equally questionable steering boxes etc...

and c) We were in the woods and we didn't have 24 out of 28 guys exceeding 80 mph average since the roads in the woods ocassionally had turns.. and d) OBVIOUSLY taste is a factor, but there is really no argum,ent that at HIGH SPEEDS ---which the current crowd is obsessed with----that a longer car reacts "calmer" at at high speeds, calm is whats needed. and D+ when have seen that even in the woods of Western WA and OR that the length of even the limo like hideous, ghastly 740s is not that big of an impediment to top placings, and just recently the absurdley overpowered 240 of Lane winning....

Sure taste matters, but "Horses for Courses" .

Quote
bw_krupp
I understand what you are saying, but I'm also trying to be realistic in that I want to have a point-of-no-return in the build where I can stop there and have a street car. Or decide to continue and keep going.

no offense, but that kind of thinking is what keeps people from finishing "projects". like a self fulfilling prophecy.

figure out what your budget is and if you can afford to race. and by "if you can" i mean, do you want to do one event, several dozen over the course of years, or tow around the country to win a championship?

once you have that figured out, then start on the build.

and grant has it right on the money too. safety, suspension/brakes, fancy bits. and notice that he didn't say motor in there? that's because a good driver can overcome it with determination and skill. hell, i would go so far as to say before fancy bits you should go do more events instead.

if you get to wrapped up in your "project", you'll never get it done or when you crash (and it will happen) you'll be all pissed since your fancy shit's all broke.

Also, never underestimate how much time college actually takes up. Even when you're NOT in class. Trust me, haha.

Pomeroy has about the fastest roads in the west and the average regional speed isn't near 80mph. Lane has a bunch of power but the car doesn't like hairpin corners at all. While a Volvo and Merkur are around 103" wb and Starlet is 92 or so with Datsun the cars can be driven quite fast with little effort. On 'normal' roads like DooWops Burress was running right with Mr.Lane. There is a lot to be said for be able to consitantly driving thru corners at full throttle.

Since the OP has a lifetime supply of Starlets and they can be made to go fast without huge effort AND they seem to work in Finland , it only makes sense for him to explore that route. Now if he didn't have those resources then yes the Volvo is likely the best option.

I would like to thank everyone for their input so far. I may be stubborn, but I appreciate any advice and help on the way.

Quote
john vanlandingham
So if you'rebound and detirmined toforever been satisfied driving just a little squirelly for 2-3 turns, and will never try to be competitive, build the Starlet.

Pretty much. If I was only going to ever build one car, it would be the Merkur, and it wouldn't be built for rallying on loose stuff.

Quote
Mark
no offense, but that kind of thinking is what keeps people from finishing "projects". like a self fulfilling prophecy.

It may be a little self fulfilling, but until I get going I'm not sure how committed I'm going to be. I'm just starting out. I probably won't decide for myself till I get the car up in the air and take a look at the nitty gritty.

...I don't think I got to the right start here. I don't mean to come on all defensive or anything. But to me, being talked out of using the Starlet is being talked out of attempting stage rally at all. And in response to the engine swap, that is a separate issue as I've always wanted to stuff more power into a starlet, and would do that irregardless of attempting rallying at all. So why not start there. That will at least give me an immediate smile and keep me motivated.

So, now, after minor bickering is settled, a few questions.

How is the minimum weight calculated for the NASA class 2wd light? I can get the weight of the Starlet down below 1300 lbs (I know because I've already done it with the stock engine). If I use the busa engine the calculated displacement would be 1608cc and the 4age would be 1920cc. Or the stock engine 1024cc (pushrod). As a matter of personal preference, I would like to run as light as I can, and I read the rules and I didn't know if it used the same chart as Open AWD Light.

Am I allowed to run the transmission at the rear? I would certainly not do this as it is in contradiction of keeping it simple, just speculating in my head. But if I was to run an Audi transaxle at the rear of the car and keep the engine at the front, is this allowed?

Anyone heard anything good/bad about technotoytuning? They sell camber/caster plates and adapters to use AE86 fronts on the starlets. I'm always highly skeptical of any company, but if they are decent it would save some time on the front suspension (at least until it breaks from being made of inferior materials).

What size tires/wheels are "ideal"? This is a more immediate question as my dad's friend is going to be throwing away a pile of wheels and will let me sort through them first. I wouldn't get too excited, but hopefully I can find something bigger than the 13x4.5s that are on the car at the moment. I know I can't go too wild on tire sizes without cutting the fenders.

What should I do for the cage? Not first step/last step, but where should I go, who should I talk to? And how much should I start setting aside?

In about 6 weeks, I will know a lot more as thats the earliest I can get the car in the shop and up in the air. I've sort of inherited my grandfathers old shop but have to clean it out first.

Anyways, I'm starting to get excited at least

Techno Toy Tuning (aka T3) has made some darned fine parts that I have on my Corolla. Very strong, beefy, even over-built, would be descriptions I'd use. I'm using the T3 tension rods right now, and I had a good comparison picture vs. the stock ones, but I can't find it right now. I'd get on the phone and call him, he's pleasant and should be able to answer whatever questions you have.

I think you can use whatever transmisison/transaxle you want, as long as the engine remains toyota. How about a 1uz-fe 4.0L v8? Depending on your power goals, I'd look beyond the 4AGE if you're looking for lots of reliable power. That said, the 4AGE in my corolla spends nearly all of its time between 4000 and 8000rpm, and hasn't given me any problems.

ideal tire size depends on your car's gearing/power/weight.

That's all that I think I know the answer to...

--sarge

---

---** To be in compliance with the Anarchy **---
Jorden R. Kleier
Baraboo, Wisconsin, USA
1990 Mazdog Protege 4WD
1973

Cages, Gene does cages still? My cage was done by Derek Nelson here in Seattle, around $2500.

Most popular rally tire sizes are in the 14" and 15" sizes. Remember your brake stuff is limited by what you can fit in the wheel.

Build it dude, have some fun with it, if you want more in the future then move on. I think a well built car will be WAY faster than you for quite some time. Don't get all hung up on power, MANY very fast people in 125 hp cars.

Don't re-invent the wheel, get the car strong enough to be reliable, make modifications to make it stronger or easier to work on 1st, then go for performance next. Get some experience, and improve the car as you improve.

My car I built to be reliable, and strong. Entered 3 rallies so far, and finished 3 rallies. I am getting much better at the driving part, but am still WAY below the maximum performance of my car.

Quote
bw_krupp
I would like to thank everyone for their input so far. I may be stubborn, but I appreciate any advice and help on the way.


In about 6 weeks, I will know a lot more as thats the earliest I can get the car in the shop and up in the air. I've sort of inherited my grandfathers old shop but have to clean it out first.

Anyways, I'm starting to get excited at least

I have to go drill holes and mill slots in a buncha Nissan SR20 Sentra ears for the struts, I'll get back to you..

here's a big serious no bullshit suggestion cause I do have a soft spot for the Starlet, I just presume that eventually, everybody starts getting what I call "the perv twitch", the desire to go faster or be more competitive.

The best way to make that short lil' sonny beach work good is to find a way to dial in 4-5 degrees of castor.
Then the car will be stable enough
See the long wheelbase (but always with a quick rack) thing is based on the assumption that folks starting out will be using stock-ish or warmed over stock-ish control arms and junk.
But now with William, Sean and I all working together on ideas and materials and junk-and-stuff, the average dood, like you, may have a very viable way to do adjustable---rally strength bottom arms..which will allow castor adjustment.

That one thing is really vital.

Second: any size tire you can routinely get is the right size, any size you have potenial for scoring cheap wheels, you can compensate at the back axle for 14 " or 15"
Japanese OEM alloys are not strong AND they break so get something strong..
What is the wheel ET for the bugger?

A just ever so slightly warmed up 4AGE ought to be enough fun to begin with, fianl drive and relaiblity are way up the list..

One thing you oughtta think of is what front knuckle.
Corolla is just barely bigger than junk, if you're going to have a funny bottom arm, why not attach that to a front spindle/knuckle that is substantially stronger?
The shits old now and I have seen Japonaise spindles shear off right in front of me, YIKES!!!
Don't OBSESS on weight, just don't be stupid with regard to gauge of materials....

More later, i'm done with my tea..gotta go make suspension for Japonaise stuff---and a Bavarian Maggot Wagon too!


I've said my words, and get some castor in the Starlet and it'll be fine..

All of what Sean said.

Serious though Brent, being a Merkur owner, just compare the front suspensions between the two. Imagine that you have a compression strut instead of the anti-roll bar.
Look at the front right of the Merkur with a mirror and imagine it on the front left of the Toyota. Rough measuring has the length needed for compression strut and control arm being around 1/2" difference. Seriously, half an inch. Shit, Merkur stock stuff with just compression struts could probably work as long as you tack the Merkur strut top and check what kinda camber your getting before you go too crazy.
Having the spindle seperate from the strut is a very good thing. Not to mention there is affordable big brakes and struts for rallying already available for the Merkur setup. The PCD difference is a pain, but manageable. Change the rears to 4X108 as well and you can run the Merkur wheels and the gravel big brake kit in the rear as well.

Really, though, what I would do is get the car running kinda reliably, stock engine or 4AGE, and weld the stock diff). Get a cage and seats and such in it and go do one of the cheap events out there. Doo Wops or Mt Hood come to mind. Once you have an event done you'll probably find yourself with an INSANE amount of motivation.

engineless Starlet in the SF Bay Area, if anyone's interested.

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/cto/1924653379.html