Hi out there. I grew up and live in E. Washington out by Moses Lake. I am re-re-begining a project that I originally started and aborted 10 years ago. I grew up with Toyota Starlets. My parents first brand-new car was a 1982 Toyota Starlet that served as the family car for 650,000 miles, before the engine and trans were swapped into a younger body (and has since racked up another 400,000 miles with only a carb rebuild as major maintenance). However, I am planning to use this: Starlet Link It was my delivery car when I was going to college that I bought for $142. I have 6 very worn Starlets. Between them I have enough parts for one, maybe two, factory fresh cars (don't ask for parts, at least not yet, I'll post up for sale as I get around to it).

I don't have a lot of money to spend on this. I have finally nearly sort of wrapped up my Merkur XR4Ti build (just a street car with goodies slapped on and a lot of maintenance finally done). So I have some time available (never enough) and can finally sell the Geo as I have the Merk as a backup car again. So I want to do a very simple build. I do have a 90hp K series Starlet engine already, but I want to either go the route found here: New Option for RWD Rally Cars or the tried and true 4AGE swap. (I've also had grand delusions of a 3.4L V8 SHO swap, and while the engine cost of all three swaps is close, at least the 4AGE and Busa engine have been done). Then a roll cage, natch, and a limited suspension build. I don't want to go crazy, I want to retain as much of the stock car as I can for simplicity, and whatever is replaced needs to be done on the cheap (excepting where safety is concerned). I don't care about winning rallies. I just want something that can be entered so I can *legally* flog the roads that have been driving since I was kid anyways. And have something that can serve as an emergency backup car to get the groceries.

Other cars I have available to consider building (though my heart is set on the Starlet): 1972 Triumph TR6 (was fully built as a rally car back in the early 70s by my uncle and won several events, developed a low oil pressure reading on the gauge and was parked without ever investigating the cause...25 years ago, needs engine rebuild and new interior), 1982 Fiat X1/9 Bertone (rough condition, but just begging for an engine swap), 1993 Geo Metro (for the giggle factor), 1992 Toyota Paseo (I really like this car, handles great, especially in slippery conditions, shares the platform of the later Toyota Starlet, so theres actually parts available), 1987 Merkur XR4Ti (as much as this is probably the best of the bunch to build, I question its complete lack of reliability).

Anyways, thats what I want to do. Thoughts, comments, death threats, anything? Hopefully this winter I can get going when theres space available in the new shop. Till then just trying to get my thoughts organized so I don't waste money like I did on the Merkur (though I at least got most of it back reselling). Cheers

Welcome Brent.
The Starlet or the Merkur are the only two to consider. They're both fun cars!
Have a good Starlet shell? Mines rotten with rust. We could trade a partial pre-fab rally cage for a clean shell in the future. I have to finish the other two rally cars first though before I'm allowed to do anything other than mount these Subaru seats in my Starlet.

Starlet is a pain in the ass to find parts for.

Got any pics of the TR6?

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Dazed_Driver
Starlet is a pain in the ass to find parts for.

What kind of parts are you looking for?
Like I said, a simple adjustable control arm and you can run Merkur uprights, struts, and front brakes. Fuck it, may as well convert to Subaru top mounts while your at it. Four link the rear and run whatever rear end you want. Engines, well, you're not likely to run the 59 hp stock engine and 4AGE and T50 gearboxes are a dime a dozen. Go to a fuel cell, stand alone engine management and the only things left are body panels, windshield glass, and headlights and taillights. Seeing as there are three nice looking Starlets within 1000 miles of me there not that bad really. You just have to get a little pervish about it and start collecting good cars and maybe a few spare windshields.
Of course, a Merkur is still easier to build and has more than enough power right out of the box. Once you delete all the electronic bullshit in a Merkur you'll find they're quite reliable. Right Sean? Or Colin McLeery, who's not around but did what like 29 straight rallies with no DNFs before he ??graded to the 5.0 V8 engine. The ?? is because some consider that an upgrade, I consider it a downgrade, but okay.

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Dazed_Driver
Starlet is a pain in the ass to find parts for.

What the hell is with your Gen-Y disaffected youth passive aggressive trolling tonight

Body panels, at least around here, from what I've seen seem to be pretty rare/expensive for starlets. Which is kind of an important consideration... well, unless he's never gonna crash.

Hey Welcome!

I used a have a 82 Starlet...

From what I found when I owned mine was if you needed parts the price was high, and when you didn't NEED them you could fill your backyard with spare cars and parts for the price of the fender you bought when you needed it.

The clean starlets would bring good money, but mine had 270Kish miles and had been on the coast most of it's life. It had a lot of rust.

If you're going to build a starlet, find a nice rust free shell... and go with that. As Grant said, you're pretty much not going to keep anything stock except the body anyway.

I'm really a huge fan of the bugeyes.














81-82's




83-84's

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Dazed_Driver
Body panels, at least around here, from what I've seen seem to be pretty rare/expensive for starlets. Which is kind of an important consideration... well, unless he's never gonna crash.

That's true for any 70's to 80's Toyota. They are getting to be a pretty rare find in junkyards nowadays.

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Dazed_Driver
Starlet is a pain in the ass to find parts for.

Like I stated, I have 6 to scour parts off of. And I'm not looking for a perfect condition show car in the end. I just want it strong enough that when (not if) I run into stuff it keeps going. Which is another reason for the Starlet. I have done some incredible non-intelligent things with them and they just keep going. The only thing I'm lacking ATM is windshields. I only have two uncracked ones. And all body panels are dinged up a little bit, but some elbow grease should tidy them up enough.

So the way that I initially see it, there will be 5 areas to tackle on this: 1) engine/trans swap, 2) rear end swap, 3) roll cage, 4) front suspension, 5) misc body. This also says to me that if I tackle this in order, after 1 and 2 are complete, I can always just stop there and have a street car or have another car for sale. 3-5 will be much more involved and tackling areas I haven't worked on before, but should have good results.

1) 4AGE is most likely. As I mentioned earlier, I'm interested in the Hayabusa swap (admittedly mostly for the giggle factor) depending on how much that ends up costing. If weight saving isn't an issue with entry into rallying (I seriously need an idiots guide to the rules), I can probably run the 4KU I have as the one Starlet currently weighs 1350 lbs (and thats before lightening the glass or anything drastic). I also have available to me a heavily modified 20R that (supposedly) put out over 250 hp n/a when it was pulled from a wrecked Celica (my dad's friend RIP). I know that I can get a 20V black top 4AGE and all electrics for it for under $1000, which is almost the price of a used busa engine. I can always of course, run with the 4KU and come back to this later.

2) Janvav mentioned to me the Dana 30 out of a volvo. I had thought originally to use whatever met the following: same bolt pattern as front wheels, LSD, disc brakes, cut and modify to fit. I have a spare rear end out of an 88 Turbo Coupe lying around, so if that can work no money spent.

3) Roll Cage. Last time I looked, there were no cages specific to the Starlet for sale, but there was one for a Datsun that fit. Obviously a custom made tricked out cage is "best" but for simplicity I would rather go with a weld-in kit. I want to get it done, not pursue diminishing returns.

4) How easy is it to stuff in the Subbie or Merk fronts? I've always liked the basic suspension of the Starlets, and the brakes, but obviously that is with 59 hp, not 3 times that on rough roads. I want to keep it simple. For suspension, I would rather spend X amount to get 90% there rather than spend XXXX amount to get 95% there. This is the area where my mind is least made up, and probably the area where I not only would need the most help, but is the area of biggest improvement in the performance of the car.

5) Welding is cheap. I would like to weld in as much reinforcement as is practical and allowable. I want to fab up a cheap and dirty undertray, toe hooks, etc. This part of the build will probably drive me nuts, but won't cost that much thankfully.

The junkyards around here are crap. The nearest halfway decent one is the pull-and-save by Spaldings in Spokane. I haven't been to Seattle in a long time, but its still (too) long a drive. So unless I'm lucky, its ebay, craigslist and forum purchases from here on in.

I'm just trying to get it to the start line, nothing too complex ("yet", though knowing myself it will get complex in no time). I don't care if its not competitive as long as its fun, reliable(ish), and cheap. I don't care if its rust brown with crinkles on every panel as long as it brings a smile to my face. Though obviously I would give it more care than that. Mind you, I am not the most capable person on the planet. I am a fast learner but I was never "taught" any of this growing up so I'm just learning in my spare time. I finally have use of a shop long term (with a pit no less), so I can get started here in a month or so. Though I am first raising the Merk in the air to redo the suspension. And my unreliability with the Merk is entirely 50% electrical and 50% hoses (vacuum and coolant) exploding. Its never left me completely stranded, but I just don't trust it enough to drive it hard for more than a couple minutes at a time.

Anyways, ramble over. Thats my thoughts at the moment. Cheers

If stage rally is the end goal....the cage will have to be built to a specifc standard. Only certain materials and construction will be allowed. I doubt you'll find a pre-built Datsun cage that will be compliant. 2nd issue will be the power plant. NASA allows swaps RA doesn't. As most of the PNW events are a mixed bag you should build a car that is eligable for all. That would be Toy powered as you have mentioned.

It doesn't make a difference to me if it qualifies for all events or just some. I'd rather end up with a fun car that makes it to two or three events a year and get my feet wet and later on build a better car (probably a different platform altogether) if I decide to be serious about it. If NASA is the only PNW organization that allows swaps, I'll simply build to their rules on this one. Is this the best place to go to for rules: http://www.nasarallysport.com/main/rules

By motor swaps I mean putting a Ford into a Chevy swap type of swap. You can put any Toyota into any Toyota for everyone. Build the car to RA rules http://rally-america.com/rules.php and it will run all events. Olympus, Oregon Trail and DooWops are currently RA. Wild West, Idaho and Mt.Hood are currently NRS. Wild West and DooWops have switched back and forth in the past.

Wild West is in danger of being canceled due to lack of entries, Mt.Hood may have an issue with road permissions in the future. So you never know from year to year Who is on first...you really don't want to be the guy caught out with a car that won't be accepted at an event and can't be sold. Even the most budget rally build is a very large investment in time and money.

When did the sanctioning bodies stop accepting each other's log books? I've always been under the impression that you can run a RA event with a NASA logbook and vice versa. So build to one rulebook and you can run both series. They should be pretty close to the same.

Couldn't a Starlet-busa still run in Open class in RA events? Or ask for a waiver or something.

Give up on the idea of using a kit for any other car in a car it's not built for. You can ask John Cirisan how smart that is and how costly that can be.

You're numbers are all messed up. The order of importance should be:
1) Roll cage, 2) Front suspension 3) rear suspension, diff, axle, 4 link and final drive 4) brakes, also goes along with number 2/3 really since they're all inter-related, 4) gearbox/ratios 5) reliability

I understand what you are saying, but I'm also trying to be realistic in that I want to have a point-of-no-return in the build where I can stop there and have a street car. Or decide to continue and keep going. To me, that would be after the engine is in and running. To go with that is the rear end as the stock diff is an open 5.5 that barely works with 59hp. If it helps, lump the engine and rear end in as Step 0, to get the car up to "drivable" before any other work begins. (I should point out that the car with the best body and the best engine are two separate cars at the moment. So even if I use the Starlet engine, there is still an engine swap involved, even if it only takes a day vs many days.)

Any decent cage builders in PNW? I'm pretty much located in Moses Lake. I hesitate to ask as I don't my eyes to bulge out too huge, but what am I looking at for cost? IF I can get coordination together to get the car trailered somewhere, I will do that step first (well second, prep it for cage first).