Another 510

Why don't you ask Gene McCullough what he ran on his rally car. I believe it was a 510 and that he did very well in it.

Well we ended up putting a ka24e into our 510. We got an entire 89 240 sz off of craigslist for $400. We had a headgasked problem with one of out L-16 an decided to putthe KA in 2 weeks before a LSPR last year, an have been running it no problems ever since.. The KA makes enough power for for us right now, an is a ton of fun, an the reliability is awesome! An it runs on pump gas!
As for the rear, we are just using a R-180 with a lsd an a lower ratio gear set, nothing fancy. The rear brakes are something like whats on sprint cars, like this brakes they were on the car when we got it so we just stuck with them.
We left the roof on with the cage, we built 3'' tall boxes that the cage sits on on the floor that we put in last, that along with being flexable made it possible to get everything welded up.

The is a like to our facebook page there is some more pictures on it..
Facebook fan page

regarding the ka24de head, how to the oil and coolant passages line up?

Oh shit. I think I may have found the build sheet for my next rallycar...

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Dazed_Driver
Why don't you ask Gene McCullough what he ran on his rally car. I believe it was a 510 and that he did very well in it.

Maybe because there are now tons of options that simply weren't in production when he was flogging Nissans or Rat-soons, Timmy.
Nissan's KA24De wasn't made until 1991--and then it was brand new and most of us don't buy brand new engines, ya know?
The SR20DE also first appeared in 1991 in USA and unfortunately was only around in FRONT wheel drive applications---which means there weren't easily available gearboxes..
See when people want to drive cars, they usually find its best to attach a gearbox to the motor, it helps with acceleration...

The really lurv-ly FJ20 was produced in the early 80s and some few were very occasionally imported back when the Jap engine in a crate deal was first around, and the FJ was a Homologation special if there ever was one (89mm bore x 80 stroke), basically a productionized version of Ford Cosworth BDG, but those were rare rare rare---so rare that I was at at least 2 places that had some on the ground off in the corner and the Einsteins at the Japanese engine Wholesalers had no idea what it was....and showed no interest in bring in more or the trannies to go with them...

Gene had sorta gotten married and had sorta taken a big break before miuch more than the L-series head onto the nAPS-z bottom end had been done----and sorry Timmy, even way back then in the late 80s/early 90s, I was building Nissan motors and pushing the FJ motors since I imported things and had contacts in the Nissan rally scene in UK.

So I'm sure gene will contribute something here if he feels he has something useful to add---he has said he was never a big fan of the "real" 510 but preferred the later , simpler "so-called" 510.


Is there some reason why you felt you needed to comment?

Sure, here is why I felt like commenting.

1) because I can, get used to it.

2) Gene did very well in his cars. He knew how to set them up. That means something. I'm not going to undermine your hawking of your own parts when I mention someone else who might have a clue as to how to make the 510's go.

2.5) Why am I supposed to care what you were building in the 80s? The point isn't what YOU were doing, it was what GENE was doing.

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Dazed_Driver
Sure, here is why I felt like commenting.

1) because I can, get used to it.

2) Gene did very well in his cars. He knew how to set them up. That means something. I'm not going to undermine your hawking of your own parts when I mention someone else who might have a clue as to how to make the 510's go.

2.5) Why am I supposed to care what you were building in the 80s? The point isn't what YOU were doing, it was what GENE was doing.

Because you stupid idiotic shit head of a punk, behind everything you say is such a chasm of ignorance that you PRESUME constantly that others, me specifically, haven't built or assisted people running cars and that's why you are an idiot, not merely ignorant but flat stupid.

OBVIOUSLY from the details written, I have worked extensively on the 510s, built motors, done brakes, done suspension and steering. I've own one, several of my close friends rallied them---with my parts---and they did quite well, top5 results ...

RESULTS---(heard of them punk?, No of course not)


PARTIALLY, unlike you, because they listened AND COMPETED instead of poked at some coma-project thing for a few minutes a month and then went and annoying, like you do..

You're an annoying snivelling useless asshole, Timmy, and you ought to grow the fuck up and act like a member of this community and fucking well CONTRIBUTE useful information or at least something funny---or get the fuck out, you festering pustule.

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Dazed_Driver
Sure, here is why I felt like commenting.

1) because I can, get used to it.

2) Gene did very well in his cars. He knew how to set them up. That means something. I'm not going to undermine your hawking of your own parts when I mention someone else who might have a clue as to how to make the 510's go.

2.5) Why am I supposed to care what you were building in the 80s? The point isn't what YOU were doing, it was what GENE was doing.

Knock it off Timmay....

You need to care what JVL was doing because he is 110% correct. L series Datsuns are a great copy of a poor design. You can throw money at them all day long and make nearly as much power as a stock Kia sedan. None of the actual production heads are awesome, don't believe all the U coded whatever BS about heads that hits the forums. The FIA head was a hand built piece of unobtainium.

Back in the day we had pretty small fields. My first win was in a '73 510 and it wasn't because the car was fast. My first roll was in that '73 510 and it wasn't because the car handled well. I won because I could go fast, not because the car was fast. Much of it was a survival game also, unlike the 'sprints' of nowadays. I don't think I did well in my old 510, or Datsun roadster, Arrow, Datsun 1200. I did well in my RX-7, 626 and 210.

Nissan found a niche that car would work in, SCCA road race. Tighten it up, lower it and spend a fortune. They flew, back then. The rear suspension has a huge design flaw in the amount of toe and camber change during full travel. For rally I think they are a bunch of work to drive and prep. I built a bunch of 510s for customers, street, rally and race. They were very popular, but so is Justin Bieber now.

IF I were to do it now I wouldn't even consider an old 510 and I sure as heck wouldn't touch an L series 4 banger. The KA makes way more power for seriously cheap. "Factory support" available at the nearest wrecking yard or street corner.

Rally is a hobby. Some people rally on the net, some build a car forever, some volunteer and a special few actually hit the dirt. It will not lead to fame and fortune. The only money in the sport is what you spend. Wanna make a small fortune rallying? Start with a large one...build reliable, build cheap as possible, have as much fun as you can. There are still only about 5% of the competitiors that are fast. If you ain't one of the 5% then build a good reliable car and sit and wait. There will be a day when it comes your way. That $10 survival trophy collects as much dust as one from domination....

Leave me out of the pissing match.

Dang, awesome commentary from everyone. thank you all for the input. good to see Dave C. on here! i remember reading those articles back in the day on your rally beater project in SCC. So glad to hear the beater is still kickin'

I like that the opinions fly fastly and furiously here, and I do believe what dazed is saying worked in the 80's will also work today in just about every instance. So much has been discovered and forgotten and rediscovered on the 510 over the last 40 years, and I'm all too aware of the paralyzing array of possibilities. The interwebs only adds to the intrigue.

Building a rally car as most of yall know is already a crazy enterprise, and this is my VERY FIRST try at it. I'm trying to keep the build as SIMPLE as possible using stuff i already have around so i can race it. It's either my existing L-series, my top end mated to a LZ franken-bottom if i trip over one, or a whole sr20de as a distant dream. (anyone have an autech sr20de with a 6 speed kicking around? that there is the ultimate) In any case, a more favorable gearset is the #1 piece of kit i need to acquire.

Dave, do you have any issues with ground clearance wrt the SR? I always thought the SR's hung lower than the L motors due to additional height, but maybe i'm just seeing too many pics of squeaky clean and slammed turbo SR's with the fancy greddy oil pan under there...

Anyhow, sticking with the KISS method, the L20b i already have put 130hp/135tq to the wheels on a mustang dyno a couple years ago. It's a pretty well built motor, but probably needs gone through. z-flat top pistons 86x86 bore/stroke, lotsa head work, (head is a rare early L20 head called an U60 - came from a gt4 car supposedly and has "B.BRE" stamped on the side further adding to the mystery) it's fitted with larger z valves a fairly aggressive cam but nothing crazy - 290deg, forget the lift but enough to need the spraybar) it has the long nissan comp intake and 44phh mikunis. I need some magic worked on the wonky accelerator pump linkage and maybe some more jet fine tuning. It goes like stink as long as you feed it even throttle and don't mash it. It doesn't start for shit when it's cold outside. yay mikunis. If i had a grip of cash i'd just send the whole thing to Rebello along with my spare L20b and say "refresh this and make me another one just like it, kthanks bye!"

Though it's tempting to go nuts on suspension conversion stuff, i'm sticking with the tried and true 280z struts converted to coilovers. I'll be beefing up the control arms though. I've seen a few steering conversions to the z-car style rack and pinion, but that shit's sketchy going from a rear-steer design to a front rack and getting all the geometry straight. It would be a dangerous exercise in futility for a dude like me. My steering boxes are still tight, and i have a spare.

Thanks for the pointers on the cage build and everythign else Curt. does one roof vent work ok for you in the summer, or would you do two if you had to do it again?

Also, are you running a viscous R180 out of an STi or something older with a clutch-type lsd? did you have to adapt the stock 510 axles for the new style subaru difs, or did it bolt on?

Quoting the particularly poignant bits...

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heymagic
My first win was in a '73 510 and it wasn't because the car was fast. My first roll was in that '73 510 and it wasn't because the car handled well.

sage advice.

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heymagic
The rear suspension has a huge design flaw in the amount of toe and camber change during full travel. For rally I think they are a bunch of work to drive and prep. I built a bunch of 510s for customers, street, rally and race. They were very popular, but so is Justin Bieber now.

No good way around that trailing-arm problem other than through some crazy rear subframe swappage like dave c above alluded to. That would bieber it up nice, but it's beyond my capabilities.

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heymagic
IF I were to do it now I wouldn't even consider an old 510 and I sure as heck wouldn't touch an L series 4 banger. The KA makes way more power for seriously cheap. "Factory support" available at the nearest wrecking yard or street corner.

Point well taken there too. The L is what came with the car, so someone else spent all that $ at the machine shop. i'll probably run it til it breaks and put in an sr or a ka. Lotsa decent KAs out there like you said.

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heymagic
That $10 survival trophy collects as much dust as one from domination....

I like the part in the story where the car finishes the rally too.

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dirty_d
Quoting the particularly poignant bits...



No good way around that trailing-arm problem other than through some crazy rear subframe swappage like dave c above alluded to. That would bieber it up nice, but it's beyond my capabilities.



Point well taken there too. The L is what came with the car, so someone else spent all that $ at the machine shop. i'll probably run it til it breaks and put in an sr or a ka. Lotsa decent KAs out there like you said.



I like the part in the story where the car finishes the rally too.

OK, not too extensive but I would really suggest a hard look at what it would take to go to simple coilovers in the rear. One big problem of the spring in the middle of the arm in back is the spring has a big lever working on it so the spring's spring rate has to be higher to get a proper wheel rate and the installed height in the OEM position makes going heavier---via thicker wire---uses up available travel.
The OEM spring diameter and fixed nature of the seats means getting the rate and the travel and setting the height of the car---so the camber/toe stuff is as good as is possible in the "normal range" is really hard, while switching to a simple coilover like this:


makes ALL those things a snap.

So if you have to cut in a little half tower like C or [ to give clearence is a worthwhile one time thing.

Ya know i've looked at the coilover stuff. people on the internets are running those setups on street cars, and it makes sense to have the ability to change spring rates and heights a little easier, but i don't see how it helps alleviate the wacky camber change problem.

Reinforcing the shock tower to support a coilover isnt a big deal, I'm just not sure about reinforcing where it mounts to the back side of the trailing arm. It's a funny little bump back there, and isn't really captured by anything, so it fails the kiss test for me. Let someone else blaze that trail on a rally car.

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dirty_d
Ya know i've looked at the coilover stuff. people on the internets are running those setups on street cars, and it makes sense to have the ability to change spring rates and heights a little easier, but i don't see how it helps alleviate the wacky camber change problem.

Reinforcing the shock tower to support a coilover isnt a big deal, I'm just not sure about reinforcing where it mounts to the back side of the trailing arm. It's a funny little bump back there, and isn't really captured by anything, so it fails the kiss test for me. Let someone else blaze that trail on a rally car.

It doesn't alleviate the problem, but at least you can set the car where the arcs are least bad most the time.

as for blazing the trail, it was blazed already 25 or more years ago. Simple.

Can't remember exactly the lower shock mounting but seem to recall the lower bolt was hanging out in single shear---wait



Jeebus, boxing in with a few little pieces of sheetmetal so the bolt is supported is hardly "blazing a trail". It's a few minutes of 'cheap insurance' that should be done regardless of what damper is being used.

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heymagic

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Dazed_Driver
Sure, here is why I felt like commenting.

1) because I can, get used to it.

2) Gene did very well in his cars. He knew how to set them up. That means something. I'm not going to undermine your hawking of your own parts when I mention someone else who might have a clue as to how to make the 510's go.

2.5) Why am I supposed to care what you were building in the 80s? The point isn't what YOU were doing, it was what GENE was doing.

Knock it off Timmay....

You need to care what JVL was doing because he is 110% correct. L series Datsuns are a great copy of a poor design. You can throw money at them all day long and make nearly as much power as a stock Kia sedan. None of the actual production heads are awesome, don't believe all the U coded whatever BS about heads that hits the forums. The FIA head was a hand built piece of unobtainium.

Back in the day we had pretty small fields. My first win was in a '73 510 and it wasn't because the car was fast. My first roll was in that '73 510 and it wasn't because the car handled well. I won because I could go fast, not because the car was fast. Much of it was a survival game also, unlike the 'sprints' of nowadays. I don't think I did well in my old 510, or Datsun roadster, Arrow, Datsun 1200. I did well in my RX-7, 626 and 210.

Nissan found a niche that car would work in, SCCA road race. Tighten it up, lower it and spend a fortune. They flew, back then. The rear suspension has a huge design flaw in the amount of toe and camber change during full travel. For rally I think they are a bunch of work to drive and prep. I built a bunch of 510s for customers, street, rally and race. They were very popular, but so is Justin Bieber now.

IF I were to do it now I wouldn't even consider an old 510 and I sure as heck wouldn't touch an L series 4 banger. The KA makes way more power for seriously cheap. "Factory support" available at the nearest wrecking yard or street corner.

Rally is a hobby. Some people rally on the net, some build a car forever, some volunteer and a special few actually hit the dirt. It will not lead to fame and fortune. The only money in the sport is what you spend. Wanna make a small fortune rallying? Start with a large one...build reliable, build cheap as possible, have as much fun as you can. There are still only about 5% of the competitiors that are fast. If you ain't one of the 5% then build a good reliable car and sit and wait. There will be a day when it comes your way. That $10 survival trophy collects as much dust as one from domination....

Leave me out of the pissing match.

Sorry Gene, I wasn't trying to drag you into a pissing match. John took my [1st] comment personal. I just thought you might know something that could help this guy out.

Is the rear suspension toe thing similar to the e30 BMW rear suspension toe changes?

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Dazed_Driver

Sorry Gene, I wasn't trying to drag you into a pissing match. John took my [1st] comment personal. I just thought you might know something that could help this guy out.

Is the rear suspension toe thing similar to the e30 BMW rear suspension toe changes?

The major problem is you have said explicitly you are only here to try and start pissing matches.

Once you have said that, that colors everything you write subsequently.
and like 99.9% of everything you write here, you don't add a thing useful, interesting, insightful, or helpful; you just state things glaringly obvious and miss the point of anything not painfully simplistically stated.

You have never built a 510 motor, or gearbox or suspension or done brakes or installed a cage in a 510 and you don't know any of what Gene was doing but you want to direct people away from this thread because you figure I am "pedaling parts" when in point of fact I am, together with Dave Coleman (who has rallied a car, a 510 even) and Gene, giving away good information BASED On years of making not just one but bunches of 510s go for club type guys.
And go good enough for good results and LOTS of fun on events---you know? No that's right, you don't because you have never finished one car off and driven even one stage....

So why don't you go and let those who are building cars talk with those who have built the cars, and watched the parts dry up tried to figure out how to IMPROVE the cars based on what parts there are available and other motors which have become available....

Act like an half-grown adult and you'll get treated with minimal politeness; act like sneering petulant spoiled brat, and contribute zero, you'll get treated like a sneering petulant spoiled brat. Is that really surprising.