Another 510

Hi, I'm new here, and I gotta say this forum is a bit nutty. I'm used to a certain level of silly internet drama and a certain level of cool helpful stuff. Somehow the ratio is about the same here as everywhere else on the internet, but amplified.

Like, there's a this really high level of stupid derailment in this thread, yet at the exact same time ALSO 4 or 5 guys who have actually built, raced, and broken the exact car i'm building that really know their shit. in real life even.



life is weird.

... rock on with your bad selves.

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dirty_d
I'm trying to keep the build as SIMPLE as possible using stuff i already have around so i can race it.

Very smart strategy. Get the basic strength stuff done and get out into the dirt. THAT's where you learn what needs to be done.

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dirty_d
Dave, do you have any issues with ground clearance wrt the SR? I always thought the SR's hung lower than the L motors due to additional height, but maybe i'm just seeing too many pics of squeaky clean and slammed turbo SR's with the fancy greddy oil pan under there...

No issues whatsoever. The stock sway bar is sitting on 1" spacers. That's the only clearance mod I made.

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dirty_d
Anyhow, sticking with the KISS method, the L20b i already have put 130hp/135tq to the wheels on a mustang dyno a couple years ago. It's a pretty well built motor, but probably needs gone through. z-flat top pistons 86x86 bore/stroke, lotsa head work, (head is a rare early L20 head called an U60 - came from a gt4 car supposedly and has "B.BRE" stamped on the side further adding to the mystery) it's fitted with larger z valves a fairly aggressive cam but nothing crazy - 290deg, forget the lift but enough to need the spraybar) it has the long nissan comp intake and 44phh mikunis. I need some magic worked on the wonky accelerator pump linkage and maybe some more jet fine tuning. It goes like stink as long as you feed it even throttle and don't mash it. It doesn't start for shit when it's cold outside. yay mikunis. If i had a grip of cash i'd just send the whole thing to Rebello along with my spare L20b and say "refresh this and make me another one just like it, kthanks bye!"

If you already have a healthy, running L20, run it. Don't think you can get away with something that's picky about how and when you hit the gas, though. You need an engine that does what its told, or you're gonna visit the ditch.

When it starts begging for a rebuild or costing you rallies because it won't start, sell all those rare, old, parts for lots of money and buy that $800 SR. You'll never open your hood again.

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dirty_d
Though it's tempting to go nuts on suspension conversion stuff, i'm sticking with the tried and true 280z struts converted to coilovers. I'll be beefing up the control arms though. I've seen a few steering conversions to the z-car style rack and pinion, but that shit's sketchy going from a rear-steer design to a front rack and getting all the geometry straight. It would be a dangerous exercise in futility for a dude like me. My steering boxes are still tight, and i have a spare.

I'm just putting the subframe swapping idea out there. Let it bounce around in your head, especially when you're in junkyards and you can take measurements. If you're just doinig Z struts/brakes and coil-overs, don't sweat my silly ideas. If you're going to spend lots of money/time on rear discs, think really hard about how much LESS work the rear subframe swap might be. When you're fed up with that steering box, remember the S13 idea.

The subframe swapping ideas are only semi-logical because they each accomplish several goals. If you aren't trying to accomplish those things, don't sweat it.
A dead simple build should get you through a season or two of learning and having a blast. My car has obsolete Tokico ProdraG rally shocks, 810 front brakes and stock rear drums. Best finish was 4th overall. I spent that whole rally dreaming of how much easier the car would be to drive and fix with this subframe swap, though...

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dirty_d
Also, are you running a viscous R180 out of an STi or something older with a clutch-type lsd? did you have to adapt the stock 510 axles for the new style subaru difs, or did it bolt on?

You should subscribe to the dime quarterly. They just did a couple of LSD stories and I'm sure your question was answered. They're old school paper-in-an-envelope guys, though, so you'll have to buy a back-issue to find that answer. They're available here http://dimequarterly.tierranet.com/

-Dave

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john vanlandingham
OK, not too extensive but I would really suggest a hard look at what it would take to go to simple coilovers in the rear. One big problem of the spring in the middle of the arm in back is the spring has a big lever working on it so the spring's spring rate has to be higher to get a proper wheel rate and the installed height in the OEM position makes going heavier---via thicker wire---uses up available travel.
The OEM spring diameter and fixed nature of the seats means getting the rate and the travel and setting the height of the car---so the camber/toe stuff is as good as is possible in the "normal range" is really hard, while switching to a simple coilover like this:


makes ALL those things a snap.

So if you have to cut in a little half tower like C or [ to give clearence is a worthwhile one time thing.

If you're doing a simple build, do it simple. Read my rally beater stories. In there you will find exactly the Eibach part number for a spring that fits the stock perch, and you'll find exactly how much of a coil you have to cut off of one side to make it sit in the open-coil lower perch, be exactly the right height, and match the factory Safari Rally 510 spring rates.

I cribbed the Safari spring specs and have never had a single complaint about the suspension. That wacky semi-trailing arm shit everyone is complaining about doesn't apply in the gravel, in my opinion. Yes, 510s are snappy little devils to drive when they're lowered on sticky tires on pavement, but running near stock ride height, with the Safari springs and a not-welded diff, I think the suspension is fucking brilliant. All that toe change causes the car to be very responsive to lift throttle. Makes it really easy to rotate and adjust the angle of rotation with the throttle.

The subframe swap idea just swaps to another semi-trailing arm. No geometry fixes. Can't fix what ain't broke...

Watching old 510 rally videos, most of the cars running in the '70s and '80s seemed to be squatting like crazy under acceleration. I think they were running too soft a spring rate. Gene, any chance you remember what rear spring rates you were running? I don't remember mine, but luckily I printed them in an old story so they can be looked up.

Gene and I have debated 510 setup before, but all I remember from that debate was that he liked welded and I hated it. I suspect we arrived at very different setups...

Anyway, my opinion about 510 geometry is less work than Gene's (ie. the geometry sucks and should be worried about), so I suggest believing me simply because it is more convenient.


-Dave

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eyesoreracing

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john vanlandingham
OK, not too extensive but I would really suggest a hard look at what it would take to go to simple coilovers in the rear. One big problem of the spring in the middle of the arm in back is the spring has a big lever working on it so the spring's spring rate has to be higher to get a proper wheel rate and the installed height in the OEM position makes going heavier---via thicker wire---uses up available travel.
The OEM spring diameter and fixed nature of the seats means getting the rate and the travel and setting the height of the car---so the camber/toe stuff is as good as is possible in the "normal range" is really hard, while switching to a simple coilover like this:


makes ALL those things a snap.

So if you have to cut in a little half tower like C or [ to give clearence is a worthwhile one time thing.

If you're doing a simple build, do it simple. Read my rally beater stories. In there you will find exactly the Eibach part number for a spring that fits the stock perch, and you'll find exactly how much of a coil you have to cut off of one side to make it sit in the open-coil lower perch, be exactly the right height, and match the factory Safari Rally 510 spring rates.

I cribbed the Safari spring specs and have never had a single complaint about the suspension. That wacky semi-trailing arm shit everyone is complaining about doesn't apply in the gravel, in my opinion. Yes, 510s are snappy little devils to drive when they're lowered on sticky tires on pavement, but running near stock ride height, with the Safari springs and a not-welded diff, I think the suspension is fucking brilliant. All that toe change causes the car to be very responsive to lift throttle. Makes it really easy to rotate and adjust the angle of rotation with the throttle.

The subframe swap idea just swaps to another semi-trailing arm. No geometry fixes. Can't fix what ain't broke...

Watching old 510 rally videos, most of the cars running in the '70s and '80s seemed to be squatting like crazy under acceleration. I think they were running too soft a spring rate. Gene, any chance you remember what rear spring rates you were running? I don't remember mine, but luckily I printed them in an old story so they can be looked up.

Gene and I have debated 510 setup before, but all I remember from that debate was that he liked welded and I hated it. I suspect we arrived at very different setups...

Anyway, my opinion about 510 geometry is less work than Gene's (ie. the geometry sucks and should be worried about), so I suggest believing me simply because it is more convenient.


-Dave

[columbo voice on]

Oh1 Yeah, there's just one thing I don't understand and I was thinkin maybe you could help me with it?
See you said.....

Let's see: buy one and only one spring for XX dollares, the cut it and that's simpler than buying a 2 1/2" coil over spring for probably 1/2 x dollares and just sticking on..[/Columbo voice off]

[John internal voice on]
I am simple minded old geezer so please to be 'splain to me how me pay doubles and than pobre mio has to cut up the spring precisimento right is mas easier than throwing a spring cost me half and wind it up.?
Is it that hard to wind springs up?
How come nobody has complained to me all those guys who have the rightful sucessor to the 510, the so brilliantly nicknamed "510 of the naughties" who also had a semi trailing arm set up with the fawkin spring sitting 30% up the arm which then gots couilovers---and said they were overjoyed how it works BECAUSE IT WAS SO FAWKIN SIMPLEMENTE???
?

Oh yeah, mang I forgots you're popping 'ludes, mang and you're all like mellow an stuff mang! So too much trabajo, eh muchachito? Too much to turn the spring seat...?

Hey mang, I was up to past 11 lat night on the fawkin mill cutting those slots---4 per lower seat--in 60 new, fresh off the lathe parts. 240 mill cuts, and tonight I go and cut 60 lock rings and a sheeeet load of upper spring seats---Youse dun't se me complainin, pendejo---how come you can't wind a spring seat up or down a few turns???

Dave...I tried welded and hated it. F'n car wouldn't turn worth a shit. I ran a plated LSD. The rear springs were around 350lbs I think. It's been a long time. I just ordered some stock car springs and don't remember any grief putting them in. I had to slot my rear carriage as per the How to race your Datsun book to keep the rear end stable. My car had a bit of toe out in the back from the factory.

Back in the late 70s I sold Datsuns in Olympia. I saw several new 610s lose a set of tires in a couple thousand miles. We'd take them in the shop, measure everything, send the specs to Japan and they would send new springs or control arms or whatever and on the car they'd go..with new tires. All under warranty. The cars were not all created equal, some were good, some weren't. Same with the Z cars. In 1978 the first freeze in Olympia we had 6 cars totaled locally in one night. All new, all adult owned.

I wouldn't build an old 510, doesn't mean someone else can't. The one thing to remember in these discussions is it is absolutely no cheaper to build a 510, 210, Corolla, VW than any other car. The basic build is a pretty much a set price. The actual car will be the cheap part in most cases. The expense comes in reliability, maintainance, the next level up of prep and so on. Finding windshields, spare parts, aftermarket support can quickly make the choice of an old car more costly that a more current shell.

However there is an ass for every saddle and I sure don't think everyone should wear plaid.

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dirty_d


Thanks for the pointers on the cage build and everything else Curt. does one roof vent work ok for you in the summer, or would you do two if you had to do it again?

Also, are you running a viscous R180 out of an STi or something older with a clutch-type lsd? did you have to adapt the stock 510 axles for the new style subaru difs, or did it bolt on?

Well withthe roof vent, we have a x type roof bar, so there is only roon for the one vent. My brother is the driver an he has never complained about it getting too hot in the car, just about the exhaust being too close to the floor an burning his foot..

As for the diff, this is what we have, an some of our headaches..lol

Diff
LSD

Now a question for Dave an John!
Do you guys have any suggestions on the steering, that isn't changing the whole sub-frame? I have read that mr2 racks with cressida tie rods is close to what is on the car, but haven't really seen any that were done, or how rally-worthy they are..

John
Then with the rear suspension I was curious if you have any pictures of anything that you have done. We are still running coils an looking to do something else with the rear an possibly the front, an wanted to see if you had any ideas or what you have done prior!

Thanks Much!

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Cscray94

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dirty_d


Thanks for the pointers on the cage build and everything else Curt. does one roof vent work ok for you in the summer, or would you do two if you had to do it again?

Also, are you running a viscous R180 out of an STi or something older with a clutch-type lsd? did you have to adapt the stock 510 axles for the new style subaru difs, or did it bolt on?

Well withthe roof vent, we have a x type roof bar, so there is only roon for the one vent. My brother is the driver an he has never complained about it getting too hot in the car, just about the exhaust being too close to the floor an burning his foot..

As for the diff, this is what we have, an some of our headaches..lol

Diff
LSD

Now a question for Dave an John!
Do you guys have any suggestions on the steering, that isn't changing the whole sub-frame? I have read that mr2 racks with cressida tie rods is close to what is on the car, but haven't really seen any that were done, or how rally-worthy they are..

John
Then with the rear suspension I was curious if you have any pictures of anything that you have done. We are still running coils an looking to do something else with the rear an possibly the front, an wanted to see if you had any ideas or what you have done prior!

Thanks Much!

Curt, it's 11.48PM, and I'm just in from the machine shop where i was just making 58 upper spring seats on the NC lathe then cutting another 120 slots, this time in lock rings, I'm pooped and gotta get some dinner--and then maybe some emails then maybe some sleep---gotta be up at 0715 as always to get the Anoushka girl ready for Kindergarten..

Let me see if i can dig up some piccies of some cars similar, like "The rightful successor to the 510" since it's virtually the same issue...Ya know so is the shock set up on the Fucus and it's also a bolt hanging out in single shear.....and wait, do i have any piccies of the BMW 2002 rally car I did stuff for, it's nearly identical...


As for the rack, early 240Z had a nice manual rack with 2.5 turns lock to lock, it was front mount but front mount is easy access---but years ago I thought that slapping a Ford Escort MkII rack with 2.5 turns would be a easy deal cause they're available--still cheap---and narrow enough...

More after 0900 tamale.

Datsun used a quick ratio box called the Safari box in the old days. I bought the last one they had years ago. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a derivative from an old BlueBird or something.

Front racks are easier to change and if you bend a tie rod the results aren't as devastating.

I never heard of putting a Z rear carriage in but I think the rear suspension looks better mount wise.

I'd bet a clever person could mount Sube stuff back there and cure the whole problem.

If you have a decent L series by all means run with it. If you are planning on 'building' one for rally there are better options that make more power. Not much difference between a L16,18 or 20 in practical performance. We had indentically prepared cars one with a L18 the other a 20. Dual Delortos or Mikunis, rally camshaft, headers and exhaust. From a 60mph to 100 on the freeway the cars stayed door knob to door knob.

The Z series 4 cylinders had a differently clocked bell housing than the L series. I think it is layed over 10 or 15 degrees less. So if you get one the shifter ends up closer to the co-driver. Might be the other way though..heck it's been over 20 years since I was a Datsun guru....

(head is a rare early L20 head called an U60 - came from a gt4 car supposedly and has "B.BRE" stamped on the side further adding to the mystery)


I don't know jack about Dotsans, but I have heard of BRE. Just a thought to throw out there, it might be worth looking into what you really have and how much it is worth. If you are lucky you might be able to sell your ancient race motor, and have enough for TWO of the stock modern motors mentioned above. People pay lots for "real" race parts, and on the other hand, for rally IT HAS TO START every time, like at 6am when its raining.

After my tiny little taste of the sport, I have learned that "starts every time" is about infinity times more important than everything else.



Now that I look, Dave said this already above. I would say the most important thing to do is listen to what Dave says, as hes is offering you a proven recipe, which is way more important than any trick part.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/03/2010 03:32PM by alkun.

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alkun
(head is a rare early L20 head called an U60 - came from a gt4 car supposedly and has "B.BRE" stamped on the side further adding to the mystery)


I don't know jack about Dotsans, but I have heard of BRE. Just a thought to throw out there, it might be worth looking into what you really have and how much it is worth. If you are lucky you might be able to sell your ancient race motor, and have enough for TWO of the stock modern motors mentioned above. People pay lots for "real" race parts, and on the other hand, for rally IT HAS TO START every time, like at 6am when its raining.

After my tiny little taste of the sport, I have learned that "starts every time" is about infinity times more important than everything else.

That's why I fell good about working with you Al, you can think.

Madman Adam Crane has scored a so called "big" Toyota Corolla "motorsport" axle with the mad titez 22mm halfshafts instead of the boring, limp 20mm ones and he had the good diff too, but alternate ratios were a fortune, so he sold that stuff to some dorifto boys for like a million dollars and bought a Volvo Dana 30 axle for $50, a new ring and pinion for 179 bucks and drilled a few holes and presto---5.35 gear and 29mm half shafts and about $999,730 in the shoe box under the bed--he can rally for life on that one deal!

The 510 crowd will pay even more millions for any old BRE stuff cuase its made my God and Micheal his Archangle so sell that shit ciasue it'll overheat and go all banana shaped just the same as any other L-series head at this point.

OOOOOhhhh baby Oh baby SR20DE powah here we come!

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heymagic
Dave...I tried welded and hated it. F'n car wouldn't turn worth a shit. I ran a plated LSD. The rear springs were around 350lbs I think. It's been a long time. I just ordered some stock car springs and don't remember any grief putting them in. I had to slot my rear carriage as per the How to race your Datsun book to keep the rear end stable. My car had a bit of toe out in the back from the factory.

Back in the late 70s I sold Datsuns in Olympia. I saw several new 610s lose a set of tires in a couple thousand miles. We'd take them in the shop, measure everything, send the specs to Japan and they would send new springs or control arms or whatever and on the car they'd go..with new tires. All under warranty. The cars were not all created equal, some were good, some weren't. Same with the Z cars. In 1978 the first freeze in Olympia we had 6 cars totaled locally in one night. All new, all adult owned.

I wouldn't build an old 510, doesn't mean someone else can't. The one thing to remember in these discussions is it is absolutely no cheaper to build a 510, 210, Corolla, VW than any other car. The basic build is a pretty much a set price. The actual car will be the cheap part in most cases. The expense comes in reliability, maintainance, the next level up of prep and so on. Finding windshields, spare parts, aftermarket support can quickly make the choice of an old car more costly that a more current shell.

However there is an ass for every saddle and I sure don't think everyone should wear plaid.

Wow, Gene, this is great shit. All my experience with these cars comes form the 3 I've owned, and all of the cars have been older than me. Nice to hear some firsthand knowledge of what was happening on the ground when these cars were still coming out of a factory somewhere.

Oh, and I completely agree with your premise that the cost of the car is virtually irrelevant in grand scheme of rally. Windshield cost, on the other hand... (My windshield has been broken since 2001)

-Dave

Dirty D

Hello, just saw your post and was wondering how the build is going? I too am building a 510 into a rally car. I am very close to having it back in running order so i can at least drive it. I am trying to get it rolling by Feb. 2011 so i can attend the Ridgecrest rally school. I will be posting a build thread some time in the future and will provide a link to it later. Anyway glad to hear about another 510 going to the rally world.

Mike G

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BlackWidow
Dirty D

Hello, just saw your post and was wondering how the build is going? I too am building a 510 into a rally car. I am very close to having it back in running order so i can at least drive it. I am trying to get it rolling by Feb. 2011 so i can attend the Ridgecrest rally school. I will be posting a build thread some time in the future and will provide a link to it later. Anyway glad to hear about another 510 going to the rally world.

Mike G

where are you at Mike? the one Rally Anarchy rule, location in your profile. Turns this place into a true community.

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BlackWidow
Dirty D

Hello, just saw your post and was wondering how the build is going? I too am building a 510 into a rally car. I am very close to having it back in running order so i can at least drive it. I am trying to get it rolling by Feb. 2011 so i can attend the Ridgecrest rally school. I will be posting a build thread some time in the future and will provide a link to it later. Anyway glad to hear about another 510 going to the rally world.

Mike G

Hey Mike, and what are YOU doing for suspension? (only asking since I know there's nothing worth a damn for poor ol' 510s and all this 510 talk has me thinking....pretty easy stuff, more or less like any other old school car....)

My suspension setup is rather simple at the moment. I am using 280ZX struts with tokico shocks. My future plan is to get another set of 280ZX struts and convert the tube over to 40mm. Bret Norgaard of Bilstein can setup a set of shocks for rally use But I think there is more shocks available if I go to the 40mm setup. Currently the car is still up on stands. I am so close to having the car able to drive again then I will install the cage and paint.

Mike G