2.2 VS 2.5

howdy, So I'm looking to upgrade my rally car. I've done 12 rallies on the stock 1.8 liter motor and it sucks, I'm sick of it, and its starting to really eat into the fun factor. Standing WOT in 2nd gear on an uphill and not gaining any speed just isn't my thing...

That said the conventional wisdom is to go big displacement and have lots of HP. But i've found a STEAL on a 2.2 short block, SVX pistons and fully balanced . $100 instead of 9.5:1 its 12:1 . I'de still need to find heads, manifolds, harness and ecu (found a reno local with a full 2001 2.2 motor, ecu, + harness for $350) so for $450 i could be ready to rock and roll. the same guy selling the short block will port match and polish for $100 more. and i could throw some Cams at it and call it a night. $550 or maybe $900 with Cams ..

I'm thinking i would have to spend $1500 on a 2.5 in stock form to be in good shape (even compression , good gaskets, etc) ... ?? there's only a 13% displacement difference how does the higher compression affect the HP and TQ? does it make more TQ and or HP as compression goes up?

or the easy question , IF i was to port match , Polish and throw in aftermarket Cams into both a stock 2.5 and this fully balanced 12:1 2.2 short block which one will make more TQ ? and which one will make more HP ?

thanks

Quote
A1337STI
howdy, So I'm looking to upgrade my rally car. I've done 12 rallies on the stock 1.8 liter motor and it sucks, I'm sick of it, and its starting to really eat into the fun factor. Standing WOT in 2nd gear on an uphill and not gaining any speed just isn't my thing...

That said the conventional wisdom is to go big displacement and have lots of HP. But i've found a STEAL on a 2.2 short block, SVX pistons and fully balanced . $100 instead of 9.5:1 its 12:1 . I'de still need to find heads, manifolds, harness and ecu (found a reno local with a full 2001 2.2 motor, ecu, + harness for $350) so for $450 i could be ready to rock and roll. the same guy selling the short block will port match and polish for $100 more. and i could throw some Cams at it and call it a night. $550 or maybe $900 with Cams ..

I'm thinking i would have to spend $1500 on a 2.5 in stock form to be in good shape (even compression , good gaskets, etc) ... ?? there's only a 13% displacement difference how does the higher compression affect the HP and TQ? does it make more TQ and or HP as compression goes up?

or the easy question , IF i was to port match , Polish and throw in aftermarket Cams into both a stock 2.5 and this fully balanced 12:1 2.2 short block which one will make more TQ ? and which one will make more HP ?

thanks

Personally I'd skip the port and polish. You match gaskets yourself (come on whaddya think it involves?)

And you're right, a wee bit more displacement but what's the rod length to stroke ratio?
I betcha a nickle its shit and only just barely OK in the 2,2...

Best dollars spent on any normal aspirated motor is: Compression and camshft but they have to work together or you'll end up compromising the ignition timing so much you lose more..
I know one of the guys at Delta---he's picked up an Xratty---guesss he figured out what's what, eh?---- but let's look at what normal aspirated cams they have working on the presumption that compression can be gotten up to at least 11:1
THEN choose sumpin with some reasonable lift---no point being stupid on lift if the flow has flattened already at X----and some duration..

How will you control fuel and spark. What size exhaust system is on the car.
What is you axle ratio(s)?
That is the best thing for a normal aspirated car, simple gearing...

So what tire are you using? Overall diameter?

What drive configuration is that thing?

What's the shortest ratio(s) you can find? 4.44?

Each of the questions is important...
Anybody advising anything without knowing all these questions answers is just blabbering hooo-ha.

Specifications
Displacement: 2212 cc
Bore: 96.9 mm
Stroke: 75.0 mm

Displacement: 2457 cc
Bore: 99.5 mm
Stroke: 79.0 mm

alex, I don't remember who you are running with usually but the 2.2 will keep you in O2L and the 2.5 will bump you to O2H for NASA. you will also be close to the minimum weight for RA with the 2.5 (not that they check).

most of the east coast fwd subies are now running on 2.2L's of different flavors... dual/single port, HLAs/solids. some of us are running 4.44 finals. did you look at Erika's car at prescott?

I am running with some delta cams and a piggyback on the ej18 computer. runs great when hot. going megasquirt (DIYPNP) for better control, cold idle and increased rev limit.

are you still running the fwd trans or a converted awd? I think either the 2.2 or 2.5 will be not nice the the tiny fwd clutches.

Quote
john vanlandingham
And you're right, a wee bit more displacement but what's the rod length to stroke ratio?
I betcha a nickle its shit and only just barely OK in the 2,2...

Just to chip in; it's 1.74 on the 2.2, and 1.65-1.67 on the 2.5 depending on specifically which one; they moved the pin height around on some of them. But not really that terrible.

I dunno, Alex, but if you're not going to get that motor, I could use that stock 2.2 phase-II for the OBS...

Alex,
I'm 99% sure the 1.8 ECU and harness will work fine with the 2.2 or 2.5. When I thought about doing that swap all the info available said so. I would guess that a pumped 2.2 would be pretty equal to a stock 2.5. Not sure it would be as reliable.

Quote
heymagic
Alex,
I'm 99% sure the 1.8 ECU and harness will work fine with the 2.2 or 2.5. When I thought about doing that swap all the info available said so. I would guess that a pumped 2.2 would be pretty equal to a stock 2.5. Not sure it would be as reliable.

you are correct, I am running a 2.2 on a 1.8L computer. it works but has cold start idle issues (who cares as long as it starts) and runs pig rich during open loop without a tune. the easiest way to swap a 2.2 into a 1.8 is to swap the long block and use the 1.8 intake, injectors, wiring.

its easy to tune the mix with a piggy back but you are stuck with a 6k redline from the 1.8ecu. not a huge deal but you drop below 4k and out of the "power" on upshifts

Quote
KTurner
alex, I don't remember who you are running with usually but the 2.2 will keep you in O2L and the 2.5 will bump you to O2H for NASA. you will also be close to the minimum weight for RA with the 2.5 (not that they check).

most of the east coast fwd subies are now running on 2.2L's of different flavors... dual/single port, HLAs/solids. some of us are running 4.44 finals. did you look at Erika's car at prescott?

I am running with some delta cams and a piggyback on the ej18 computer. runs great when hot. going megasquirt (DIYPNP) for better control, cold idle and increased rev limit.

are you still running the fwd trans or a converted awd? I think either the 2.2 or 2.5 will be not nice the the tiny fwd clutches.

there is no min weight in rally-america-car for open light.

a 2.2 should just drop in. we've done several here. not sure of phase or anything like that, but for $125, great bang for the buck.

one of the colorado kids (now in texas) put a 2.2T in his fwd car. funny thing, his co-driver was kevin turner.....

Quote
Mark
there is no min weight in rally-america-car for open light.
one of the colorado kids (now in texas) put a 2.2T in his fwd car. funny thing, his co-driver was kevin turner.....

HA! yeah, it was funny to find out I had already been rallying before starting... we're both in the RA database, there was a bit of confusion at first.

I was assuming Group 2 for RA wasn't sure if there was a rear diff going into the car or not.

Oh I'm going AWD and doing a CRS:GT Build RULES LINK maybe i missed something

CRS:GT is a Stockish class , or think of it as a very limited RA:Open light
My only focus will be the CRS this next season, i'll be placed in USRC Open 4wd and i don't expect the car to be competitive , but chances are good I should end up in the top 6 (mostly cause very few people attend all 3 west coast rounds)

update/backdate any part if it came on that body style for the Us
so any 93 - 01 part is legal. (planning on upgrading my Brakes, relocating my battery)

NO ECU TUNING / PIGGY BACKS

I have to retain the stock intake and exhaust manifold for the block i use, both can be modified.

I Scored a 98 RS Transmission with rear diff (with housing and rear half shafts) for $200
Gearing using the Silverstone S525 in the middle size (196 wide) will net me the following top speeds in each gear

30.8 | 51.8 | 75.5 | 100.4 | 132.5

I can get a EJ251 for $300 with harness,ecu, intake and exhaust
or that 12:1 ej22 short block for $100 and a complete 2.2 for $350 (harness, ecu, manifolds, etc)

already planning on OBX Front diff (its cheap $370, i'm used to it, and its been durable on my 1.8) plan on a 12kg or 20kg center, and a KAZZ 1.5 way rear talked to kazz and i can get a bit of a 'custom' setup .. basically just them maxing out the break away torque which should be 100 lbs, but 75 after break in. based upon what i've read here and other places (lots from john vanlandingham) this should feel similar to the 05 Diff setup on full or 85% lock Torsen front, locking center, clutch rear (though i think the sti uses a 1-way with 45 lbs of break away) I like the handling of that setup .

so that's the plan (assuming budget holds up) If i don't have the budget for all that i'll do the brakes, and the diffs and wait on the motor. Or maybe just wait on the rear diff, depending how short i am on budget.

Think i'm gonna need about $3,000 -$4,000 to complete my "Rally Betsy V 2.x " conversion. I could always weld the rear diff for a while also to save on ~ $900

Oh Fuel and Spark fuel pump and fuel pressure regulator are free so that could be messed with to increase fuel (or lower it) which would spray a bit more gas in the motor. can't change injectors past the "update / backdate any part 93-01 impreza" aspect

spark .. uhm "The ignition system must be of stock design with the following exception. Breaker points may be replaced by an electronic trigger that remains in the distributor and does not include an MSD style ignition system."

Not exactly sure what they mean by that honestly, but think i can swap the ignition coil for any other ignition coil (non msd) ??

See any obvious areas I'm going wrong?

My suspension could probably use an upgrade too the Ksports actually perform really well, but they are a bit limited on overall travel. 6"? but they have been very reliable , and now that i have reasonable spring rates have really helped the handling a lot.

hoche if i don't scoop up that 2.2 for Me i'll get it for you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/15/2010 04:39PM by A1337STI.

Quote
A1337STI
hoche if i don't scoop up that 2.2 for Me i'll get it for you.

I'd appreciate that. If not, no worries. Mine runs fine, just eats oil. Bad valve seals probably. It's gotten better since I switched back to dino, but everyone I've talked to says it's just easier to get a junkyard motor and swap it in instead of fixing it.

Quote
A1337STI

My suspension could probably use an upgrade too the Ksports actually perform really well, but they are a bit limited on overall travel. 6"? but they have been very reliable , and now that i have reasonable spring rates have really helped the handling a lot.

Maybe sell them to some street guy and get something correct for gravel....
Let's see, what suspension on a couple of Subarus won Ontario Regional Championship and the non-turbo 4wd class whatever Rally America calls it?

Quote
A1337STI
Oh I'm going AWD and doing a CRS:GT Build RULES LINK maybe i missed something

CRS:GT is a Stockish class , or think of it as a very limited RA:Open light
My only focus will be the CRS this next season, i'll be placed in USRC Open 4wd and i don't expect the car to be competitive , but chances are good I should end up in the top 6 (mostly cause very few people attend all 3 west coast rounds)

NO ECU TUNING / PIGGY BACKS

I have to retain the stock intake and exhaust manifold for the block i use, both can be modified.

looking at the rules and what you are going for I would wait it out for the right phaseII 2.5L powerplant. Without allowing tuning I can't imagine that ej22 would ever run right or w/o a weird powerband from fuel pressure/injector changing etc. then you could just drop the stock ej25 in for the time being, work on everything else that you have planned and come back for more power later. cams/header.

the 2.5 would also put you in OL RA and O4L NASA where the ej22 doesn't really fit in elsewhere.

that intake/exhaust rule looks easy to take advantage of... cut the manifold right at the head and add in some nice headers.

while we're at it here is how our ej22 runs on cams/piggyback, 4.44 final, tall 13" silverstones and jvabs:

[url=

]Black River Stages 2010: Stage 1[/url]

Can we all make a solemn pact to slap repeatedly upside the head anybody who A) invents a car class that mandates "stock" shit, kick in the nuts anybody who makes up classes with some ulsshit things which have to be standard but tons of other shit that is OK to modify and yet its called---stupidly---dishonestly, bullshittingly "Standard" or Stock or Performance Stock...

Can we further agree to SCREAM AT THE TOP OF OUR LUNGS at any person who--for whatever combination of biological or physiological or post postpartum depression or whatever the fuck saddles themselves---and inevitably others---which the decision that I wanna build a P car or Pgt or Fuckin CRS fucking I can change the gear set and final drive and add a leckert LSD, but I can't change the hose clamp fawkin class (or tuning)?