I drove my 510 in anger this weekend for the first time in at least 3 years, and it was good. Lap after lap of a 3.5-mile triple-secret private rally reserve for washed up old rally cars.

Here's the amazing thing, though... I've driven that 510 a lot, and I'm pretty good at making it do what I want. In the right kind of conditions (tight and mostly downhill), I can embarrass open class cars with this thing. The triple-secret rally ranch is the right kind of conditions.

Then, after 8 or 9 laps in the 510, I jump in a Volvo 240 with this JVAB suspension nonsense in it. The Volvo is probably 300 pounds heavier than my 510, and probably 20 hp weaker, and I had never driven it before. Even so, within 3 turns I was already going faster than I could pedal the 510. That suspension is amazing! It just soaks up all the crap that was forcing me to slow down in the 510. The car is really stable, but still adjustable and really controllable. Tons more grip than the 510! The 510 rotates better than the volvo, but even in the tightest bits the Volvo danced plenty well enough to snake through faster than my lighter, more powerful 510.

Oh, and the brakes actually slow the car down! My 510 brakes just make the car understeer, so I try not to use them...

I've only driven 3 miles in one, but I am a Volvo convert now.

-Dave

Awesome! Always loved your 510 articles. I'm thinking my xratty with JVAB suspension and brakes, supra dif and slightly warmed motor should do just fine
So where is that rally facility?

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frumby
Awesome! Always loved your 510 articles. I'm thinking my xratty with JVAB suspension and brakes, supra dif and slightly warmed motor should do just fine
So where is that rally facility?

It's at an undisclosed location in Northern California, North Of SF, East of Vallejo, South of Clear Lake.
And it's secret.... even I don't know and I know lots of undisclosed things...

someone tell me so we can pit that volvo against a subaru and see who wins

Well, my 510 has beaten Subarus.

That Volvo beats my 510.

So, by the transitive property of bench racing, that volvo is faster than any Subaru.

-Dave

First time I drove on the superbitchin suspenders, I could not believe how much stuff they soaked up.

I wil do a Volvo Rally car some day, probably drive almost just like the Merkur.

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Jon Burke
someone tell me so we can pit that volvo against a subaru and see who wins

When there were a bunch of Imported British in very expensive cars here in the early 2000s a certain Carl Jardevall was consistantly beating every fawkin Sub-a-rat in the US excpt the imported brits and the "Pay 32,000 per event" so called offical drivers at SRTUSA.

John Lane has also beaten every stinking Subaru in the PNW with his over the top Volvo..

In the land of the blind men, a one eyed man id King...

If any of the people spending whatever they spent on a Subaru of any model or spec would devote 1/2 that into a well done Volvo, they could do higher results---presuming they know how to drive...

Sorry Jon, the modern turbo 4wd car is proof of design excellence, and only way down the list comes driving--you have only to look at every event nationwide with half the Subarus beat by barely warmed over "Grope 2 " cars.

I will now give everything I have, every ounce of energy, into besting your precious swedeboxes Jon. Once this sub-a-rat actually runs it's only mission will be the demise of the brick.

And according to Dave, your'e crafting me the perfect weapons...

Muwuhaha

Muwhahahahahahahahhahahahaha

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john vanlandingham

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frumby
Awesome! Always loved your 510 articles. I'm thinking my xratty with JVAB suspension and brakes, supra dif and slightly warmed motor should do just fine
So where is that rally facility?

It's at an undisclosed location in Northern California, North Of SF, East of Vallejo, South of Clear Lake.
And it's secret.... even I don't know and I know lots of undisclosed things...

ah, Bagshot West. What a plucky little test track. I wish we had some in-car of it. Its all very tight, I guess I'd call it ones and twos with maybe a few threes, at least 3 blind crests, no straight longer than 50 yards, rocky dry stream crossings to test the undergarments, oak trees, including a pair you'd be tempted to go slideways between but the car only fits going straight (Ahem, cough cough, Alex), and best of all,there is a mini junk yard with FREE volvo parts, which is great when a-arms yield to high levels of fun...

When on new tires, going down hill with lots of turns I can take a fight to an open class car in a 2wd car.

Ain't no F'ing way I can keep pace for a whole rally with AWD cars.

If Subaru Rally Cars are half the car my street Legacy GT is, there is no way no how I could ever drive my old Gp2 car as fast as I could drive a Open class Subaru.

Cherry picking the data will bring out talk about John Lane, my self, Carl J in the bus, Tom B in the Rabbit etc, but the fact is; Subaru Rally cars are faster then 2wd rally cars.

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derek
When on new tires, going down hill with lots of turns I can take a fight to an open class car in a 2wd car.

Ain't no F'ing way I can keep pace for a whole rally with AWD cars.

If Subaru Rally Cars are half the car my street Legacy GT is, there is no way no how I could ever drive my old Gp2 car as fast as I could drive a Open class Subaru.

Cherry picking the data will bring out talk about John Lane, my self, Carl J in the bus, Tom B in the Rabbit etc, but the fact is; Subaru Rally cars are faster then 2wd rally cars.

Sure Subu-bitchy and Mister-burus are faster cars but obviously most aren't driven faster...

More importantly, my opinion, is to look at tyhe specific things that make them such that so many inexperienced guys can jump in and with remarkably little time, go "fast".

I posit it is a few key elements which in one package makes them "easy" to go fast in:
1) mildly tuned, broad powerbands that thanks to the moderately sized turbos, make "lots of Torques" all over the rev range
2) a set of gear ratios that works in harmony with the torquey motors. Not tooooo close---not needed----not tooo wide or with huge gaps (like your old maz-dog or the early Eclipsed or Gaylants) that lets the engine rev fall flat---and the turbo to spoool down to nuthin.
3) a little shorter final drives in the 4.1 to 4.4 range so the overall gearing isn't "hurt" when using the 65cm tall rally tires
4) post 99 m.y. anyway, 'pretty darn good" brakes

And if we look at all common available turbo 4wd cars from about 1990 onwards, aside from flirtations in GC8s and Lancer shells, somewhat longer wheelbases aorund 102" or so which is the amateur drivers who doesn't have camber, castor and toe BOTH front and rear wants to have a stable shell to drive high speed parts of the events, and these days there is lots of high speed stuff.

In the medium to higher speeds of US and Canajian stages the 4wd isn't a decisive advantage.
I am supported in this belief in Northern Europe where the roads are sweeping and fast like here. Folks there agree:at medium to fast the drive configuration isn't decisive (and any car, driven well and which stays together can do good)


That short list is why I see the turbo 2300s in either an Xratty or a Volvo, with the specific T5 gearset I push and slightly shorter rear ratio and some brake at least sized similar as being the easiest to do combo---and much cheaper.

I know YOU Derek could drive a strong, simple Xratty or 240 turbo a n awful lot faster on stages than you think. I know it. You may disagree but you've not pounded a half decently set up one...

The ability to buy a brand new gearset with virtually the same ratios as an Evo gearset for a mere $380 means Yes, you can have essential close enough to the modern Subie or Evo ratios---at a fraction of the cost.

The availability of Toyota 8" pick up or Supra axles/diffs and ring gears for $10-$125 means Yes you can final drives and parts STRONGER than the modern turbo 4wd cars, again for a fraction of the cost.

The fact the 2300 turbo motors can make all the power needed for a 2wd car easily and without expensive anything ( even with 100k motors) means, yes you can match the modern turbo 4wd cars on torque and exceed them on BHP is you are nuts.

And the availability of JVAB Soooper Bitchin brake kits means Yes you can match the modern turbo 4wd on brakes.. 283mm x 32 for the Xratty and 11.75 x 1.25" for Volvo is right there in terms of size.


And IF anybody did put a coordinated package together AND entered events, I say they'd be able to make similar or same results with either the rwd turbo car or the 4wd car...

Cause it ain't the sheetmetal or the reedy suspension links or the cheesy subframes or the badge that makes the modern Evos and Subies go, is it?

YOU Derek could. I know you could.

And with time, many could...

Such is inertia that it has gone like it has gone for reasons other than clear superiorty.

meh....too much talk, not enough Volvo vs. Subaru porn pics/video/in-car action...WHERE!?

Lets watch Dave playing with RC airplanes instead



For some reason the camera shut itself off every time it was mounted in a car...we still have no idea why.

Eh, black level was off in that one. This is better:





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/19/2010 06:46PM by Tim Taylor.

But hey let us not forget the point of this post, a well set up 240 is a fun car to drive and they are less expensive.

I have only really driven 240's twice in anger and I found it a well balanced easy to drive fun car. I was not use to the loooooooooong over hangs at the ends but I am sure in about 3 miles of stage I would get that dialed in.

Once was at a Rally X where I drove my Uber Golf Evo2, the one with the Gemini Gearbox, the F3 Motor, 50mm DMS, Custom Rack etc etc etc and a Stock Volvo 240 Turbo Automatic, stripped of all unnecessary weight but otherwise just like it left Sweden. I was faster in the Volvo... A lot faster in the Volvo, the Volvo had cost me $300 the golf at that point was over $20,000. That backs up Dave's point fairly well.

I do not doubt for one moment that a $10,000 Volvo/XTR4I produces way more smiles per mile then a $10,000 Subaru. My own experience says 2wd is way more fun to rally then AWD at any price point. Henry Joy (Ex Subaru of America driver) once told me a 100 HP RWD car is lots of fun, you need to get over 300HP in AWD to start having fun with. A problem when we are using restrictors to keep AWD just under 300 HP!

yeah, the point of the original post was that the volvo with the clapped out drivetrain and the JVAB suspension makes a decent rally car. Credit where its due. Just for the record, the stock volvo handles like a boat, Noah's Ark to be specific. Also, it was all welded together by Senior Taylor so that the rear end makes full use of the travel but is still nice and low, and the struts have a generous amount of neg. camber.

Jon, I guess I'm going to have to put a snail on the brick and give you a good old fashion twin-rooster tailed ass whoopin'! You just get your Fuji Fancycar ready, ok sucka?

(hows that for a crowd baiting grudge match?)