phlat65 Sean Medcroft Mod Moderator Location: Edmonds, Washington Join Date: 02/12/2009 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 1,802 Rally Car: Building a Merkur |
some people just enjoy working on their cars, are motivated to finish them, and dont lolygag about and do a bunch of extra unnecessary shit. then we go play in the woods.
I can easily make $100+ an hour doing side work at home. I would rather build my own shit instead. |
NoCoast Grant Hughes Infallible Moderator Location: Whitefish, MT Join Date: 01/11/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 6,818 Rally Car: BMW |
I still remember when one Canadian rally guy that I was talking to was telling me how he actually enjoyed everything up to the actual driving part. Now he just builds rally cars and works service.
There are aspects of filming rallying that I like more than driving. Everyone has their strengths. It's maximizing those that's important. I'm not rushing out to build a new rear beam or control arm, not because I could not, but because I know someone else already is. |
BJosephD Brian j Dyer Mod Moderator Location: southern maine Join Date: 05/01/2009 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 381 Rally Car: 04 Rocky Mountain MTB... |
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Dazed_Driver Banned Infallible Moderator Location: John and Skyes Magic Love liar Join Date: 08/24/2007 Posts: 2,154 |
Well, technically, you could be paying someone else to clean house, lol..
I really only meant this in the "buy vs build" argument. Sure, technically you can make it applicable for everything, but certain things are worth doing yourself, IE, cleaning and mowing. I like this example. I can build a roll cage. I've done it. It took me forever. If I did it again, I'm sure it would take MONTHS less time, however, its not worth my time. I would rather pay someone and get a much nicer cage, quicker. Stuff like that makes sense to farm out. I see building a pedal box in the same light. I could build one (I actually did, and while it didn't take that long, at all) I would rather buy one if I did it again. I would NOT pay for someone to stitch weld a car, or do paint prep, or clean off undercoating, or assembly. I wouldnt pay some one to fabricate the brackets for the rear end for the 4 link, etc. Small jobs are quick, they're easy. I can do them efficiently and not waste my time. But something I'm just not that good at, I would rather pay someone who is then spend time learning to build something I realistically wont build a lot of times. The investment is not worth the return, as John stated. |
Greasecar Justin Carven Professional Moderator Location: Portland OR Join Date: 01/21/2009 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 86 Rally Car: '79 VW Rabbit TDI, '02 VW Golf |
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Mr. K Chris Krepski Infallible Moderator Location: Gatineau, Québec Join Date: 02/25/2010 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 31 Rally Car: 1991 VW Golf, 8V of fury! |
Thanks for the photo Justin! Looks simple yet effective. Interesting how you used the side mounted M/Cs rather than the flange mount like the off-the-shelf versions.
Another noob question related to this: how does the rod from the brake pedal connect to the balance bar? Was too busy at Tall Pines to take a look at different setups this past weekend... Now to decide if this component is the sort of thing to use my limited fab skills on ;-) |
Tom B Tom B Mega Moderator Location: Douche Canoe, WA Join Date: 02/27/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 780 Rally Car: VW Golf |
mine ala cascade autosport:
![]() -Tom DemonRallyTeam | Fine Tuning | CTS Turbo & RP Turbos | RalleyTuned | JRM | Meister Autowerks Spitfire EFI | Product Apparel | JVAB Imports | NLS | AP Tuning | USRT Add us on Facebook | Next Event: 2013 Olympus Rally June 22-23 Olympia, WA |
Cosworth Paulinho Ferreira Super Moderator Location: Charlotte, NC Join Date: 03/15/2007 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 721 Rally Car: Honda Civic |
The problem with making your own pedal assembly by cuting and welding is then the geometry of the system. Its not just expenssive for the materials in it. Its in fact the engineering time put into it. A badly designed/made pedal setup will have you chase hell with brake problems that will never be resolved and you'll end up changing suspension setups, brake bias, pad compounds etc etc just because the pivot points were made wrong.
Everything is easy to make if you're just slapping parts together, if the balance bar tube is not perfectly square then the car will have everything from bias migration mid braking point to brake drag, also the mc rods not being perfectly parallel will create hysteresis and bias migration with pedal travel. Also having the bar centerline go past the pivot will give you mushy feel due to the loss of leverage. And for those that dont know, the typical bias migration on a good push type pedal box with the rods tuned perfect is 2-3% in line pressure bias, if it has rear pivot mc's then its about 1%. A pull type box will have less than 1%. Now this is ON ENGINEERED Tilton/AP pedal boxes and with the rods setup right, now if its one of those clubman type boxes the migration is even more on order of 7-11%, and then if its something home made with fence pipe type engineering then all that you're doing is wasting time, money, and performance. Because the OE system works pretty good as it is. |
Greasecar Justin Carven Professional Moderator Location: Portland OR Join Date: 01/21/2009 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 86 Rally Car: '79 VW Rabbit TDI, '02 VW Golf |
I'm pretty sure my box was also made by Cascade since this was Pete VanBogardt's old car. Here is another photo where you can see the top of the box.
The same design could be done using the flange mounts (like in Tom's photo). The shaft from the pedal uses a clevis joint on either end and a threaded extension rod. The aluminum pivot you see the top of in the photo holds the balance bar. I'll have to see if I have any more detailed photos on my other computer. |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Junior Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
Well people gotta try if they are ever to learn. Somebody made the first pedal box. Then they learned to make it better. And better.. The logical conclusion to what you suggest is for people to become good obedient consumers. And to simply shug when somebody says "we don't have something for____" and say "Like,.............whatever, I guess" |
KTurner Kevin Turner Super Moderator Location: Newark, DE Join Date: 01/27/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 364 Rally Car: 2wd Impreza... dude you should do an sti swap |
bringing the thread back with some picts of the pedals we put together for my impreza. its pretty much a copy of tiltons pedal box measurements applied to a stock subie pedal box:
![]() installed; ![]() The numbers I got from using "mikes brakes" worksheet if anyone wants to double check. I haven't had a lot of time to run around with the car but everything seems pretty good so far. Testing at Summit Point in a couple weeks. Vehicle weight 2550 lbs Front weight split 60 % Wheelbase 98 " CoG height 14 " (a little low??) Max deceleration 0.80 g Brake pedal input force 75 lbs Brake pedal ratio 6.00 :1 Number of masters 2 cyl Pad coeff of friction 0.50 Front Rear Wheel rolling radius 11.8 11.8 Effective braking radius 5 5.2 Brake calliper type 2 2 # of pistons 1 1 diameter (" ![]() effective piston area 7.060 3.534 Maximum Conditions Front Rear weight per tire 911 364 friction force per tire 729 291 ideal force balance (%) 71.4 28.6 brake torque per wheel 8597 3439 hydraulic pressure needed 487 374 master cylinder area 0.462 0.601 brake torque ratio 6.476 2.590 Ideal master diameter 0.767 0.875 Ideal Balance 71.4 28.6 Choose closest match 0.750 0.625 master cylinder area 0.442 0.307 resulting brake torque ratio 6.771 5.077 Resulting balance 57.2 42.8 movement / wheel / 1/64" 0.250 0.180 pedal force 35.9 19.1 Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/29/2011 08:56AM by KTurner. |
biknman David Potter Super Moderator Location: Baltimore MD Join Date: 12/08/2007 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 10 Rally Car: 03 WRX Wagon |
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john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Junior Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
2.12 and 1.5'' was is der los???
Oh formatting. And ''closest match to rear .875 is .625'' noch ein mal was sägst du junge? Und weiter: is there really just 364 lbs on the rear tires?? werklich? John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/06/2011 02:45PM by john vanlandingham. |
KTurner Kevin Turner Super Moderator Location: Newark, DE Join Date: 01/27/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 364 Rally Car: 2wd Impreza... dude you should do an sti swap |
yeah, I screwed the "rear closet match" field up. we did run a front .75 and rear .625 this year and it was ok but I am going to switch to a .75 for the rear and balance it out. the low rear weight is under max braking w/ weight transfer. might be a little exaggerated. either way the brake upgrade was the biggest improvement we made this year so that we were slowing faster, later and with more confidence. |