I could be wrong here, but sticking an older FIA certified cage into a new build isn't a guarantee to pass tech. I was seriously looking at the Custom Cages kit for my build BMW Compact but it was my understanding that it'd never be signed off in the US because it was 10 years (???) past the homologation date.

Dave

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DaveK
I could be wrong here, but sticking an older FIA certified cage into a new build isn't a guarantee to pass tech. I was seriously looking at the Custom Cages kit for my build BMW Compact but it was my understanding that it'd never be signed off in the US because it was 10 years (???) past the homologation date.

Dave

Correct, you can't take a homologated kit that has been sitting on a shelf for 10 years and install it. However you could buy a current spec FIA T-45 or CDS kit and install it.

I remember Prodrive (on David Suttons behalf) hounding the shit out of Richard during the 2005 season becauseA(among other items) he had a homologated 2002 cage(lighter) in a car bodied as a 2004(when they had added a bunch of tubes). He may have had a hodge podge of homologations in that car but none of it was an advantage. I also remember this came to a head at COG where Mike Hurst literally screamed at the brits "godamit I don't care about VINS etc, there is no advantage, he won"

Pat won that rally, beat Stig, on Stigs used tires!!

Pete...( I knew somebody would fall for that trick) it is 1/2 inch difference in the car, 1/4 inch per side..

John, 253 isn't complicated or expensive, doesn't raise the bar. It is quite elegant in it's simplicity. We allow DOM with a slight size adjustment to accomodate the normal American market for tubing. It doesn't require FIA certified welders. It is a design that anyone with average skills can bend and install at home. It is a design that everyone can build and will fit most every car easily( excluding wierd stuff like MR2s and Fieros) It is a "universal" engineered design so to speak. It takes the engineering degree out of scrutineering. I don't have to look at some wierd rock crawler inspired roll cage and make a decision. You have no idea how "artistic" some people get with roll cage tubing. It is flat scarey.

Dave, I don't think the old FIA cages come with stickers now, I heard something about that but in typical Gene fashion I can't remember.

Some of the homolgated cages are pretty weak . I've seen pics of a bent torn harness bar because the tubing was too thin. No names being mentioned.

Pretty much all of motorsports is liability centric. Competitors need to be somewhat protected( usually from themselves ) , spectators, organizers, workers, facility owners. Its a fact of life and no one or organization should be jawed for trying to protect itsself or the rest of the involved people.

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Gravel Spray
Correct, you can't take a homologated kit that has been sitting on a shelf for 10 years and install it. However you could buy a current spec FIA T-45 or CDS kit and install it.

From what I could dig up, there was only one version homologated for the BMW Compact back in 1994-1995 IIRC. Harry Hockly makes a CDS kit that would come with some sort of cert (MSE?) good for use in Europe, but from my hazy recollection, that cert wasn't good enough for anything on this side of the pond. I suppose if the sizing of the tubes was up to american spce it could've at least a good starting point. I didn't feel like re-wiring the car from the get go, so I went with a one-off here. Certainly a few things I'd do differenty if I were to build another one.

Dave

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heymagic


Some of the homolgated cages are pretty weak . I've seen pics of a bent torn harness bar because the tubing was too thin. No names being mentioned.

.

I remember looking at one of the Prodrive cars at parc expose at Wild West a few years back. It was the WRX with the illegal UK 300 wing that Mark Lovell drove and then they later rented out. I think Mark Nelson was renting it at that event. I noticed a big crack about 20-25% around the tube right next to the weld where the main hoop rear stay attaches to the rear strut tower. One reason I'm not a fan of chromoly for rollcages. I don't know how that ever made it through tech. If I had been a scrutineer that car would have had it's logbook pulled.

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Gravel Spray
Now you first must pass a welding test prior to installation, they send you a few tubes to weld together, you ship them back, then they do a destructive weld test. Then after the cage is fully installed, pre paint you have to provide 10 photos, the feet (with serial # clearly visable) and a few more of certain juctions. After they review everything they approve it and ship the Homolgation papers and a cert sticker.

That might actually save some people some time. And gas money.

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hoche

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Gravel Spray
Now you first must pass a welding test prior to installation, they send you a few tubes to weld together, you ship them back, then they do a destructive weld test. Then after the cage is fully installed, pre paint you have to provide 10 photos, the feet (with serial # clearly visable) and a few more of certain juctions. After they review everything they approve it and ship the Homolgation papers and a cert sticker.

That might actually save some people some time. And gas money.

If the powers that be REALLY wanted to cover the legal bases, they would require all cage installers to submit to and pass a ASME 5G and 6G etc weld test, then stamp the cage foot with their cert #. Then, a failure is on a welders ass. But, that's a lot more expensive to impement than pointing to another cage standard and printing words in a book.

On a regular basis cages that meet the letter of the rules 100% with regards to tube elements are allowed to run with welding so scary looking that wouldn't pass a simple visual inspection, much less survive a pull test...or a metalurgical engineer on a witness stand picking it a part.

Hey Dave I rememeber that car and that huge crack, Nelson it was...he made a mess of that thing too!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/16/2011 05:55PM by Gravel Spray.

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heymagic
Some of the homolgated cages are pretty weak . I've seen pics of a bent torn harness bar because the tubing was too thin. No names being mentioned.

There was an instance of this happening within the last year over here. The tubing on some of those cages is only 0.045-0.050 thick!

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BillyElliot
All those cage rules are for FIA homoligated cages, and as Grant said, not backyard garage build cages.

There is a general "if you build a car now" rules that pretty much mirrors the RA/NASA rules, except they call out for CDS and T45 instead of the allowance for DOM that RA/NASA give. These rules are for non-homoligated cages (aka one off builds) and is a general catch all that will give ample minimum protection needed to satisfy the FIA.

I probably missed something in there, but that's what I gathred when I was researching cage design and homoligation with FIA cages when I was looking for a cage in the Civic.

You havae it rigth Billy; the rules we deal with are 'backyard build' rules. Your first sentence seesm backwards but that it probably context; your perspective and read of the rules is correct.

Regards,
Mark B.

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john vanlandingham
But as Grant astutely points out, none of this is actually about occupant safety, or actual stresses, or anything at all really except establishing a defense in a theoretic court case.

I don't often say anything strong BUT.....This is an absolute rubbish statement and sentiment. If you and anyone else think that Gene, Michael, Andrew, Mike H, Don Taylor, the CARS guys, myself and all the others who work on the cage rules and look at cages over and over, don't care highly about the safety of the occupants, then you don't deserve anything but to be kicked in the pants. This has to be the stupidest statement ever on any rally forum.

Safety rules evolve. Engineering tends to be a small part of it; experience is the large part of it. Expereince of what happens, what works and what doesn't. A lot of racing forms learns from other racing forms. Does it get carried away sometimes? Yes. Can other forms work? Yes. Do the cage and safety guys have the time to perform engineering analysis on each new or crazy idea? No. Do all, or even most, cage and safety guys have the training to analyze each new and crazy idea? No. Do business, liabilty, and insurance play a part in all of this? Yes, and they should, because the people in the corsshairs to take the hits are the ones on the line to have their fortunes and perhaps lives destroyed in lawsuits, not guys sitting and typing on a forum.

Is "none of this actually about occupant safety"? Only a %$#@head would actully believe that thought.

Sorry to step on any toes or egos, but this REALLY steamed me bad.

"On a regular basis cages that meet the letter of the rules 100% with regards to tube elements are allowed to run with welding so scary looking that wouldn't pass a simple visual inspection, much less survive a pull test...or a metalurgical engineer on a witness stand picking it a part."

Very true! In the past I have been reluctant to point out cage problems because I didn't want to stir up a big mess. In the future I will be more likely to talk to my chief of scrutineering about poor quality workmanship.

---

Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

Once upon a time people didn't race because it was "dangerous". Now they don't race because it is "expensive".

Choose your poison. This season's wind blows towards the no-expense-spared in the name of safety direction.

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heymagic
Grant, there is nothing to be gained with your main hoop bend as shown. It doesn't gain any room over tilting the whole hoop back 3 degrees or so.

What about the more squareness of the connection of the half lateral to main hoop and rear stays? Not pictured yet in that drawing...

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Gravel Spray

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DaveK
I could be wrong here, but sticking an older FIA certified cage into a new build isn't a guarantee to pass tech. I was seriously looking at the Custom Cages kit for my build BMW Compact but it was my understanding that it'd never be signed off in the US because it was 10 years (???) past the homologation date.

Dave

Correct, you can't take a homologated kit that has been sitting on a shelf for 10 years and install it. However you could buy a current spec FIA T-45 or CDS kit and install it.

I thought you could do this from talking with Hurst in emails. As long as the FIA cert matches the year of your car and the paperwork provided, you're fine.

I see plenty of builds across the pond of Irish guys building civics w/ old FIA papered cages in new builds. Although, TECHINCALLY for us, the homoligated cage could not be true because the American chassis was not in the homoligation paper work for the chassis. But that's talking about taking your car to an FIA event.

Here for RA/NASA they can accept/reject whatever they want really. Doesn't say anything about FIA cage expiration dates. If that was the case, all the cars out there with FIA cages in them wouldn't pass tech, and I can think of a lot of cages that are FIA homoligated specials.

You CANNOT add elements to an FIA homoligated cage, even if it seems to improve the safety of it. Which is probably more what the Prodrive guys were getting slack for (if I read they took a 2002 cage and added bars in a 2004 chassis?).

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modernbeat
Once upon a time people didn't race because it was "dangerous". Now they don't race because it is "expensive".

Choose your poison. This season's wind blows towards the no-expense-spared in the name of safety direction.

Not buying into this statement at all. NO new expensive safety rules are in effect that I can think of. The basic cage design now (since 2007) is probably $60 more in materials than the previous minimum cage. Most cages are built beyond the minimum anyway. NRS and RA have worked diligently to keep the sport both safe and affordable. There are always compromises. The basic cost of a minimum spec build is still pretty affordable if done at home. The cost of insurance and roads keep going up, out of our control unfortunately. I can assure you that no sanctioning body or organizer is getting rich off of rally in the US.