I've got a friend out toward New York who really wants to get into rally. He's thinking about building a DSM, but has expressed to me he doesn't think it's the best platform, in terms of reliability. Now, being a Mitsubishi guy, I've suggested the reliability factor isn't so much the problem as the cramped interior and limited suspension/gearing options might present.

As a keyboard rallyista, I'm approaching the limits of my ability to counsel a brother at arms. I come to you guys with a scenario and ask that you offer some ideas or thought-provoking questions what might help my buddy get on the stages sooner and STAY on them longer.

DSM: PROS
- He knows the platform well
- He already has the car
- He has some spares

Could he possibly sell the DSM and purchase a 240 (or something else) that won't require crazy funding to be drivable?
Where could someone in New York get to know more regional rallyistas? Are there any rallyx events up there? Who should he talk to? RNY is still months away, and I'd like to see my buddy get involved straight away.

Thank you in advance, my proletarian brothers.

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Brian Driggs | KG7KCA | PHX, AZ | 89 Pajero
alterius non sit qui suus esse potest

Is he AWD or FWD? Turbo or NA? Irish or Italian? (just kidding on that one)

Mitsu doesn't have any real reliability issues with that platform, room issues yes.

No headroom, transmission tunnel forces seat toward door-worsening headroom, gear ratios suck for rally and are made worse by 34mm restrictor, brakes suck, etc....but, the 4g63 can make killer power for little $. Just search rally24.com and ship over an f cup car.

I had an AWD DSM rally car. Pro: cheap way to get into open class, and the motor is a good one. Cons: visibility, interior room, suspension travel, four axles+driveshaft, three differentials, tough to service, cooling system is a problem due in part to the shape of the nose.
Don't do it. Go 2wd (preferably RWD).

How about seeing what your friend considers to be:
- not crazy funding
- drivable
- get on stages sooner

On other words:
- Does he have a price range in which to work?
- Does he prefer AWD or does he think 2WD is OK?
- Is he a car nut and wanting a car to build up and build upon over the long term? Some cars are better for just jumping and being pretty good out of the box but not being as good a long term platform, like the Nissan SE-R (early 90's).
- Does he want to get into things really soon? =====> Buy a built car
- Does he have fabrication skills, or resources and friends who can help with things like cage build?

Get some answers to these questions and we can be a lot more help.

Mark B.

Hey guys, I'm the guy who this thread is about! So to start things off, I know absolutely nothing about rally but I do know about the DSM platform. To try and answer all of the questions concisely: I actually don't have the car yet, but I'm looking at a 1991 Eclipse GSX (AWD Turbo, 5 speed). The price is better than right, and I would have no qualms with making it a dedicated rally car. I prefer AWD, but again I have never done this type of racing so I'm not so sure about the pros and cons. One thing I will tell you is I will NOT go FWD. As far as turbo or NA, if I do go with the DSM it will be turbo. I know enough about boost and the only NA DSMs are FWD. If I get some sort of other car, I suppose that my preference would be NA for reliability purposes but that's not really a big concern. As far as my price range, that is a sticky topic because I'm a college student. Money is not crazy tight and around the summer time when I have good steady work I can know for sure but I'm planning on the range being right around $5k including the price of the car. I'm sure that seems low to a lot of you but there is almost no way I will spend more than $1k on a car (I'm looking at DSMs, 240's and Nissan s12's). I'm not planning on doing any sort of racing this year but if I could get a build started that would be perfect, and ideally I could start looking into racing around summer/fall of 2012 although I'm willing to draw out the preparation longer if need be (but the sooner the better). As far as fabrication skills, I do not personally have any skills but I have a lot of friends who do and I will be learning soon so that I'm flexible on. Any more advice about a type of car, or direction to go in is GREATLY appreciated! Keep it coming guys!

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1992 Galant VR-4. 372/1000.

Familiarity is nice,. but a boosted AWD gets a bit expensive. It also excludes you from Rally America events for maybe a couple years.

You can however put a NA motor in the AWD chassis, run Rally Lite in RA and switch to turbo when your probation period is up.

From a pure cheapness/fun standpoint a RWD Volvo, Merkur, Mustang, Sylvia will be hard to beat.

Cages can be expensive. We don't wiggle on the quality of construction. I send 2 or 3 cars a year home with cages that I won't accept. That is when it gets real pricey. One guy built two home cages , cut both out and finally paid to have it done correctly. Then I sent him back one more time to get that cage proper.

Hi Eric,

And welcome. Good set of answers; helps a lot. As Gene said, starting in turbo AWD runs into restrictions with RA for some events. But you have enough NRS, CARS, and RNY events near to you that you could go to them with a turbo AWD car for initial events.

Just one thing and don't take this the wrong way: do you have much/any racing experience? I ask because we've had a couple of cases of young guys (around the age I suppose you are) who have jumped into rally with turbo AWD cars in the last dozen years and come to grief in short order, and I mean as bad a grief as is possible. If you have maturity and some caution, you'll be OK, but turbo AWD can be bad in the wrong hands. Just please, please keep that in mind. You may have the maturity to handle it, but you'll have someone's else's life in your hands when you drive.

The fab skills are important for you to meet that price range, as the cage will be your biggest mandatory cost item, and can run close to $3k if built. To do the cage on your own with help, you will need access to a proper tubing bender, the tubing and plate, someone will Mig or Tig welder access and good (NOT mediocre) welding skills, AND be armed with complete understanding of the cage rules. Don't let someone who has done just stock car or drag cages have free reign; they may have the right tools and skills, but rally cages are quite different, and it will be an expensive loss to do it wrong and have to cut major portions out and re-do if done wrong. So consult with somone who knows the rules; contact me if you like; I am an NRS techie in you rend of the USA and can help keep you straight with RA rules too. The rest of the safety gear can be done at not too high a cost (like $300-400 seats) and you can always not start with the ultimate suspension and tires to save $$, use steel wheels, etc.

I see no reason to not go turbo RWD if that kind of car is an option; our turbo Starion is superbly reliable with a larger turbo.

As for FWD versus RWD, the RWD may have an advantage in dry, grippy conditions. FWD will be all over RWD in sloppy conditions. Just so you know this. (That's just realistic, broad rally experience.) But, I would rather work on an RWD drivetrain any day. Can't say I would recommend a Z car, especially with all the rust in your neck of the woods if you mean a 240z. Now, if it's the 240 SX, that's different. I would go with one of those before a Murker. Ask others here what they think of the suspension travel on the 200/240 SX, I don't know. Any thought on a RWD mid-80's Celica? They may be rusted all out up there, but there are plenty around in the SE. I am neutral on the Volvo's myself, but others extol their virtues. I'm not as convinced on the Mustang for a basic car rally car: sounds like they need some mods to be good for rally. All of the older cars will require more work to get parts.

I see the Galant VR-4 line in your sig; why not go with that if you are a DSM guy? Good sized compartment, and there have been some around that were pretty good cars. Are they hard to get parts for? Maybe trannies? I just don't know and am asking.

And why not Subaru? (Besides the fact that they can be boring to see at rallies anymore......there are so many, there must be something pretty good about them for rally, eh?)

BTW, I built my 1st rally car while in college so it can be done; you just have to be careful with your $$, have realistic expectations on what you can do, and work hard at it. (Rally cars were a LOT cheaper to build then, though!)

Regards,
Mark Bowers



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2011 08:51PM by starion887.

Thanks for the reply! The main reason for not going with the Galant is because they are just too rare and hopefully one day they will be too coveted to abuse in the way that a rally car might be abused. The Galant is actually very easy to get parts for as long as they are mechanical and not body or interior parts because they interchange with the DSM for the most part. I would definitely consider it (and I will consider another used one for the right price) but it took me a LONG time to find a rust free one that I wouldn't have to travel at least 500 miles to get and that I could afford, so I would like to keep this one mint. As far as racing experience goes that is something that I wanted to bring up. I have very little (virtually zero) experience but I was planning on getting into autocross this summer/fall. Do you think that will prepare me at least a little better (I'm sure it can't hurt)? Watkins Glen is about an hour away from me and some of the local car guys teach a driving academy type event at the road course that I hope to do before getting into any sort of competitive or serious racing. Besides any SCCA events and that type of school, is there any other type of experience or prerequisite that you can recommend? I will still be keeping my eyes open for cars, and I will definitely consider Subaru but it seems like any in my area are always overpriced. As you said rust is a huge problem. I'm willing to travel for sure but within reason. I will go almost anywhere in the Southeast but the closer to the Midwest/Southwest the less realistic that option gets. As far as the Nissan goes it would be a 200sx (maybe a 240sx but that is doubtful) most likely with a stock Ka24 (NA 240sx motor) swap for torque and reliability reasons. That brings me to another point though. As far as your typical rally conditions what should I be looking for in terms of torque and power? A DSM tends to have pretty mediocre low end torque but above average high end while the average Nissan is just the opposite. Of course camshafts or other fuel/air delivery modifications could change that. I was prepared for the cage to be the most expensive part of whatever build I go with and it seems like that has been confirmed. Again, thanks for all the advice.

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1992 Galant VR-4. 372/1000.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2011 11:39PM by SmoothCustomer.

Hey Eric,

Good point on the Galant, I did not know how often they could be found. Sounds like a rational view that you have there.

On the auto-x and rally-x, this is just my opinion: It'll teach some car skills which is all good and useful; I would point you towards rallyx for that as learning traction control and car drift angle control is going to be so important, and auto-x does not teach that like being on gravel and dirt. Where rally-x and auto-x fall down, IMHO, is in the judgement department, and in the whole driving attitude and perception area. In the x's, you get to run a course over and over, and if you get interested at all in doing well at the x events, then you have to learn to commit to the edge of traction, etc, and be aggressive. That's all fine and good in a controlled limited course with no objects to hit, but IMHO it teaches exactly the wrong aggressive attitude for when you step out onto stage for your first 3-6 events. You don't practice stages over and over, the stages are long and you can't memorize them anyway, stage notes tell you a much more limited amount than you may perceive (you gotta read road conditions, camber, width, etc., constantly), and what is most critcal, the speeds are MUCH higher, and there are trees and banks to hit all over the place, and the consequences of a small slip up can be big and ugly, whereas it would cost you nothing but scored time in a rally- or auto-x. The perceptual environment is totally different too as you don't have cones in place to key you into where to aim, and the sensation of trees rushing closeby is a totally foreign and distracting perceptual experience that you have to get used to and be calm with. So, yes, do rally-x and auto-x, but then step out onto stage with the thought of starting a whole new learning curve, because it really is. AWD turbo can be a bad additive to this new learning curve if you don't think this way, and be accepting that you are on a whole new learning curve (and expect to finish dead last but FINISH). Many people do Ok, and at least you are thinking about this so that is good.

IMHO, 130-150 HP is plenty to start with, with 2wd. Low end torque is your friend, especially if you are learning to just rally safely and have not yet gotten to the point of learning how to carry speed through corners. Low weight is also your friend, and so shedding some drivetrain weight with 2WD is a good thing. A small nimble car is always good, especially when you are still learning reaction skills to get you out of trouble when you commit those boo-boo's and the panic sets it. (And those boo-boo's will always be there and maybe increase with aggressiveness; good rally drivers learn how to get out of most of them.)

Seems like someone mentioned a rally-x series in the Rochester or Buffalo area. The advantage of a rally-x is to get to know local ralliers more, and gather info and maybe some experience from them.

I would be interested to hear comments from others on the Nissan idea; there was some similar talk somewhere recently, and a mention of maybe parts not being so easy to get anymore. Is there a decent aftermarket following for the Nissans, and some shops selling drivetrian parts for them? If so, you'll be Ok for a while and will have to focus on finding stuff like steering parts and simple drivetrain parts like driveshafts and such. We have that issue with Starion, but we keep our eyes open and grab stuff as it shows up, adapt things sometimes, and root around for what we need. (Just got 4 new windshields last week for $100 apiece!) Keep in mind that it's hard to store gobs of parts and a spare roller chassis in a college dorm. So there are easier to support cars out there for active competition; i.e., newer models, but RWD is less common in that catagory. Maybe a good aspect of the Volvo?

Regards,
Mark B.

Haven't seen it posted here yet, but the initial cost of purchasing the car is so small long term that it almost shouldn't factor into whether the car is a "good" choice (unless you're like Scott from colorado who rolls a car at least once a year). I couldn't imagine trying to build/assemble a car while in college...and if I'd started, I'm sure the rallying addiction would've taken over and I'd have dropped out. Priority #1 is finishing college and getting a decent paying job. If you want to run an AWD car in a with a reasonably competitive manner, you should try to budget at least $10k per race:

$3500 3-4 sets of tires
$500+ 1 set of new brakes
$1500 1 turbo (gotta have antilag, right?)
$1000 entry fee
$500+ hotels

Top off that crazy amount of money with the fact that you won't be comfortable in the car unless you're 5' 6" or shorter, and rallying competitively in a 20 year old DSM doesn't make that much sense.

Now, if you're just after "having fun" there are plenty of cars you can have fun in. If you're just starting out...pick something with a high fun factor that has the potential to be competitive as you grow with it. Think this is all nonsense? I scrimped & saved and finally built an Evo only to realize after it was built that the damn thing is just too expensive for me to run it on a regular basis, so I've built a BMW to go rally with instead. I'd assume an older 100,000 mile DSM probably needs more normal upkeep than an evo with 15,000 miles.

There's a build thread in the construction forum outlining all the steps of the build, including some great advice from forum members about stuff I messed up. I paid $1100 for the 1995 318ti which I drove home. Makes ~140hp stock and you'd weigh in around 2550 lbs. If you skipped some of the needless $$/time wasters I did (M3 motor & trans, clutch/fw, tilton pedals, etc.), and have people to help you so a cage costs are just the materials, you could easily come in under $10k stage ready with non-adjustable rally suspension.

Welcome to the madness!

Dave



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2011 04:53PM by DaveK.

RWD might be more fun to force a slide in but it certainly isn't any faster than a FWD. That is really a personal choice deal.

Fun is being able to afford the car and costs. The actual car is pretty small in the expense department. The cost to actually build and outfit is a big concern, and pretty universal.

Do it yourself cage 1000
Seats and belts 1000
Safety gear 2000 (team)
Tires and wheels 1000
Suspension 1500 plus

Lites, brakes,skid plates, underbody,insurance, tabs, competiton license, mechanical mods and, and, and....
Weekend expenses 1000 and up, likely up

As they say on TV "what's in your wallet?"

First bit of advice, sit down with an Excel chart a map and a web browser to figure out your budget.

I was gung-ho a few years ago until I did the math and realized I was looking at ~$2000 per event 'if' I didn't break anything (tires, fuel, long tows, hotels, entry fees, etc) -- plus the cost of building a car and a decent tow vehicle and trailer. If you can make that work for you you can start picking a class, then a car.

FWIW, I think you're too sentimental about GVR4's (I own one), they were meant to be rallied, if one more dies in competition it will have had a noble end -- far better than ending up a rusty econobox crushed and turned into razor blades.

Hang out around here, get in a woolly argument or two with John, crew for anybody that will put up with you and spend some quality time with rally people.

You'll figure it out.

t

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Pure mathematics is the enemy of every truly creative man -- Sir Alec

Thanks Ted,
I definitely recognize your username from the Galant board. Based on what I have read, and my budget, I have a few options. Over the summer I'm hoping to get a new daily driver/beater anyway so I figure I may as well get one that's a little versatile. A lot of people have been recommending the Dodge Neon to me. I'm considering it, but I have never heard of one neon or non-turbo DSM that the 420a doesn't need machine work done on to fix head gasket problems. If I could get a donor engine for dirt cheap and get the machine work done, then just swap the machined 420a outright in whatever neon I get I would gladly do that. Or, this summer I could go down South and get a Nissan Stanza. I know I said I didn't want FWD and I don't, but it's ok for a daily driver and some others have convinced me that it wouldn't be a bad idea to get one of these cars and when the funds allow, legalize it as a beginner rally car.

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1992 Galant VR-4. 372/1000.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2011 03:08PM by SmoothCustomer.

I cut my teeth on the 420A. The only people with HG issues are people who don't take care of them (which is to say, your typical, low income commuter cattle types).

You might want to check out http://rallynotes.com if you're even remotely thinking Neon. The Marciniaks are good friends of mine and I'd be willing to bet Kris would swear by the Neon. He better, because he's getting ready to build his SECOND Neon rally car.

Let me put it this way. 420A head gasket problems are like 7-bolt crankwalk.

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Brian Driggs | KG7KCA | PHX, AZ | 89 Pajero
alterius non sit qui suus esse potest