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Cosworth

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SgtRauksauff
Anybody ever use Carbotechs?

I use them for asphalt, and like'em a lot. Just wondering how they fare in a rallye environment...

--sarge

They're ok, wish I could say they're good because I'm friends with the owners. But its really only a club racing pad. They can make you whatever you want in a super quick turn around but their whole facilities is fairly small and compared to all the race shops in Mooresville and Concord. They're no more than a small job shop.

Are they a 'cub racing pad' just because they don't have a large manufacturing facility, or because something in their friction material just isn't as good?

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---** To be in compliance with the Anarchy **---
Jorden R. Kleier
Baraboo, Wisconsin, USA
1990 Mazdog Protege 4WD
1973

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SgtRauksauff
Are they a 'cub racing pad' just because they don't have a large manufacturing facility, or because something in their friction material just isn't as good?

Both. They wouldnt be able to compe with the demand of supplying a full race series if they were speced. And the compounds are good at creating friction but nothing else really. Killer on the discs, pads taper pretty bad due to wear sensitivity to heat which will get you a long pedal afterwards, etc... its good for miatas and showroom classes like that because they make whatever you want in a day or two and normally the skill level is not that good to where performance matters more than price.

thanks for the input, good information to know!

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---** To be in compliance with the Anarchy **---
Jorden R. Kleier
Baraboo, Wisconsin, USA
1990 Mazdog Protege 4WD
1973

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john vanlandingham
You can't drive fast if you don't left foot brake!!!!
All total rank beginners who have never done a stage will tell you that!

Oh the huge manatee!!!!

I know some people do not know who Juha Kankkunen is. He said something like 'left foot braking? What am I driving an automatic?'

I know he only won 4 WRC titles or something like that... In this video he shows that you can go very quick with out LFB but he also shows that he does LFB sometimes, only once in several minuets of driving.

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derek
In this video he shows that you can go very quick with out LFB but he also shows that he does LFB sometimes, only once in several minuets of driving.

But... would Juha have been even faster with more left foot braking.

When Norm LeBlanc started left foot braking regularly we got noticeably faster and had more control of the car.

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Morison

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derek
In this video he shows that you can go very quick with out LFB but he also shows that he does LFB sometimes, only once in several minuets of driving.

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But... would Juha have been even faster with more left foot braking

.

Yeah! It probably never even occurred to him!

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When Norm LeBlanc started left foot braking regularly we got noticeably faster and had more control of the car.

Of course there is always the problem when doing comparisons that there's no baseline.

Each event adds a sognificant % of "total time on stage" which meakes it hard to say "I improved because I did ____________" because you also added 2-3 more hours total stage time...

In other words, a person could have just been driving faster AND better control because they have 33 hours on stage vs 30 hours the eevnet before...

And the overall major problem with the assertions touted as rigid absolute dogma is left foot Braking is an advanced driving technique, specifically an advance braking technique.
Considering 26 years of watching this sport in USA and Canada, I would gently posit that 99% of the folks out there would have better results if they concentrated and fundamentals like plain old BRAKING first, and giving FULL GAS longer, than advanced braking techniques.

The equivalent thing watching moto-cross was everybody beginning asking how to do cross-up jumps and "table-tops" when they can't even brake hard enough to compress the forks....

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john vanlandingham
Of course there is always the problem when doing comparisons that there's no baseline.
Each event adds a sognificant % of "total time on stage" which meakes it hard to say "I improved because I did ____________" because you also added 2-3 more hours total stage time...

Of course there is always problems when being critical of comparisons when you don't know what is being compared. While there would have been a couple of events while adapting to LFB it was certainlythe significant difference.

I'm not saying this is how LFB evolved but the first 'reason' I heard for LFB was to keep turbos spooled by braking while NOT lifting the throttle. Certainly the application of LFB that I've seen and used is more focused on weight transfer and handling than it is turbo spooling.

There is often a lack of understanding of LFB and what it brings to the table. We have a very experienced and respected driver in our area who regularly says LFB is useless in a rear-drive platform. Our local 'hot show' rear-drive driver ALWAYS left foot brakes.

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Morison

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john vanlandingham
Of course there is always the problem when doing comparisons that there's no baseline.
Each event adds a sognificant % of "total time on stage" which meakes it hard to say "I improved because I did ____________" because you also added 2-3 more hours total stage time...

Of course there is always problems when being critical of comparisons when you don't know what is being compared. While there would have been a couple of events while adapting to LFB it was certainlythe significant difference.

I'm not saying this is how LFB evolved but the first 'reason' I heard for LFB was to keep turbos spooled by braking while NOT lifting the throttle. Certainly the application of LFB that I've seen and used is more focused on weight transfer and handling than it is turbo spooling.

There is often a lack of understanding of LFB and what it brings to the table. We have a very experienced and respected driver in our area who regularly says LFB is useless in a rear-drive platform. Our local 'hot show' rear-drive driver ALWAYS left foot brakes.

Tim ONeil and I were talking at the Oregon Trail Banquet and he was telling me about how there are XX times you LFB in FWD/AWD and only X times or less you do in RWD. That seems to fit with your two drivers, Keith.

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Morison
Certainly the application of LFB that I've seen and used is more focused on weight transfer and handling than it is turbo spooling.

Yup, but that is also done through right foot braking....I think once you master braking hard and accelerating hard, then I think it is acceptable to start focusing on where the smallest amounts of time are lost....I really don't see how LFB helps most of the field in Rally, and certainly shouldn't be an initial focus of driver training; that should be saved for attacking corners and corner exits.

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-Tom
DemonRallyTeam | Fine Tuning | CTS Turbo & RP Turbos | RalleyTuned | JRM | Meister Autowerks
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"It's amazing how many drivers, even at the Formula 1 level, think the brakes are for slowing the car down." - Mario Andretti

LFB is as much an advance braking technique as it is a dynamic tool for handling.

I remember seeing footage from Ayrton Senna, where he was driving a closed car not using the LFB but was doing the same thing just by rolling his right foot to the gas while still on the brakes just to control fore aft balance.

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Cosworth
"It's amazing how many drivers, even at the Formula 1 level, think the brakes are for slowing the car down." - Mario Andretti

LFB is as much an advance braking technique as it is a dynamic tool for handling.

I remember seeing footage from Ayrton Senna, where he was driving a closed car not using the LFB but was doing the same thing just by rolling his right foot to the gas while still on the brakes just to control fore aft balance.

Ok, nice.
BUT!
There is a slight difference between an actual "pay the mortgage" professional driver with a few decades of competition---hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of hours driving at race speeds---and the average guy doing this sliding around in "whatever" prepared cars for fun---which includes 100% of North Americano rally participants...and that difference extends to the things that each is concerned with.

And when advising people even for free, much less when they're paying several thousand dollars for advice supposedly tailored to their car, skill and experience, you would HOPE that somebody might remember BASICS, or 'foundementes" or "grunden" the ground laying skills...
before one fills peoples minds with "the necessity!!!!" of advanced driving techniques the serious level guys do, when the guys don't even know how to brake in a straight line worth a damn...
And most , MOST don't brake in a straight line worth a damn.

First things first.

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Tom B
Yup, but that is also done through right foot braking

LFB is not an exclusive option. That said, it is hard (not impossible) to be on the brake and the gas at the same time.

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Tom B
...I really don't see how LFB helps most of the field in Rally

Do you use left foot braking?

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Tom B
...and certainly shouldn't be an initial focus of driver training; that should be saved for attacking corners and corner exits.

I think everyone would agree that basic skills should be in place before building on them... but LFB, in my mind, brings a lot to the table and can involve unlearning some basic skills when you adopt to it, making it more difficult to integrate at a later time.

I can see using LFB in some instances. Say, when you're turning, and want to rotate more, and instead of lifting and waiting for the weight transfer, then getting back on the gas, you just LFB a hair and get the transfer right away. Good for correcting an entry that was slightly off.

So many times at the RallyXes I've been to, and a few times at LSPR, I see people LFB WAY too hard, or way way early, and maintain it all the way through the corner. They cut their speed down, the engine can't even keep up with the braking, and the car just plain goes slower. Same car, different driver (in a rallyx) did NOT LFB, went through the corner a lot faster, ended up almost 2 sec. faster for the overall run.

I think LFB is a perfect tool to use for something extra, mid-corner, but if you've got your straight-line braking, and turn-in, and balance of the car all figured out, you might not really need it at all.

Thos're my bench-racing ruminations on the subject.

--sarge

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---** To be in compliance with the Anarchy **---
Jorden R. Kleier
Baraboo, Wisconsin, USA
1990 Mazdog Protege 4WD
1973

I like driving someone else's car with them in it, do a lot of left foot braking, spit out a fast time, and then they either stick to what they have been doing or they try to figure it out and get messed up mentally.

Never claimed to be a NICE person.

This year I think I'll try left hand shifting. "Well I'm right handed and I found that I can steer more accurately if I use my non dominant hand for shifting" or some such BS.

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Morison
LFB is not an exclusive option. That said, it is hard (not impossible) to be on the brake and the gas at the same time.

In my very humble opinion, balance transfer can and should happen before the corner, not in the middle of it, if you are adjusting a line mid corner, you probably made a mistake.

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Morison

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Tom B
...I really don't see how LFB helps most of the field in Rally

Do you use left foot braking?

I do not LFB, mainly, because I'm not that good yet; I haven't mastered my braking points yet. I do in automatic cars to get the vehicle to shift where I want it, but that is pretty much it. I have stabbed it a few times on stage to make a line adjustment mid corner, but my hand brake can take care of that most of the time too. I'm talking about the last 3/4 of the field here. Opening the throttle and using braver braking points would increase times tenfold in comparison to LFB.

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Morison
I think everyone would agree that basic skills should be in place before building on them... but LFB, in my mind, brings a lot to the table and can involve unlearning some basic skills when you adopt to it, making it more difficult to integrate at a later time.

I don't think too many people learn how to drive left foot braking. So if someone can drive remotely fast while braking the way they learned in driver's ed, why not develop their road reading abilities, braking points and acceleration points? Then once they have mastered those skills that save full seconds, then introduce something to shave off a few tenths on occasion?

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-Tom
DemonRallyTeam | Fine Tuning | CTS Turbo & RP Turbos | RalleyTuned | JRM | Meister Autowerks
Spitfire EFI | Product Apparel | JVAB Imports | NLS | AP Tuning | USRT

Add us on Facebook | Next Event: 2013 Olympus Rally June 22-23 Olympia, WA