Ever since 16, my friggin' size 13 1/2 extra wide gun boats made it hard NOT to be on the gas and brake with my right foot, and I naturally developed that "rolling" the right foot technique while keeping the revs up in my barely running hooptie.

When I have tried left foot braking on stage, I found myself thinking about it too much and ending up just going way slower.

I agree that LFB is an advanced technique, and as JV will point out, just using brakes right on stage is a major skill; start the easy way and conciously practice...

Quote
Tom B
In my very humble opinion, balance transfer can and should happen before the corner, not in the middle of it, if you are adjusting a line mid corner, you probably made a mistake.

How many rally drivers have you heard say they've done stages without mistakes?
How about decreasing radius corners... "Long L5>3"

Quote
Tom B
I'm talking about the last 3/4 of the field here. Opening the throttle and using braver braking points would increase times tenfold in comparison to LFB.

Interesting perspective... What I've seen is that the back of the pack tends to be more interested in braking and accelerating without focusing much on what happens IN the corners. (I see a LOT of cars out there driving around corners with their wheels turned.)

13 to 1 compression may have been part of the reason that I could use the gas to change my line mid turn and not need to do much LFB... Also short gearing is tall gearing in the other direction down the drive line.

Quote
Morison

Quote
Tom B
In my very humble opinion, balance transfer can and should happen before the corner, not in the middle of it, if you are adjusting a line mid corner, you probably made a mistake.

How many rally drivers have you heard say they've done stages without mistakes?
How about decreasing radius corners... "Long L5>3"

Quote
Tom B
I'm talking about the last 3/4 of the field here. Opening the throttle and using braver braking points would increase times tenfold in comparison to LFB.

Interesting perspective... What I've seen is that the back of the pack tends to be more interested in braking and accelerating without focusing much on what happens IN the corners. (I see a LOT of cars out there driving around corners with their wheels turned.)

A difference of 2-4 mph IN the corner, a time interval of a second or two, is not the place to harvest a big meaningful chunk of time.
This is something that those who have never been fast ever in anything like to discuss on forums how much there is to be gained by being "faster" ie a few mph or km/hr above their current imagined speed.

There was 10 years ago a work of incredible hilarity---or ludicrousness depending on your sense of humor, where some guy living in Ontario "misanalysed" where he could "most improve his stage times".
His "analysis" led him to conclude that "since I listened to the in-car video and knew I was "full throttle" --(it doesn't matter what exactly he said, the entire thing had to be some late night herbal poisoning so ) 88% of the time, there was little to be gained there, therefore ipso facto thus, in conclusion after the general consensus of opinion (trying to make this remembrance sound as stodgy and bullshit as the original) the place to make the earth-shattering gains was to corner faster"
He asserted that there was little top be gained in modding the powerplant
"maybe 2-3% (per cent what?) at most.

Like most who actually have not a single clue about driving fast, he assumed TONS of "data", in fact virtually all his "figures' were poor guess or massive assumptions presented as "facts".

Of course it never occurred to me that it could have been an elaborate troll fishing expedition---deep cover ridicule...

His presumptions about the sort of gains possible in powerplants was wrong by a factor of at least 10 times, he made zero mention of braking---somehow forgetting that 1/2 seconds delay in braking at 55mph nets you 44 feet--long time going faster, and was what could only descibed to be pyschotic in what he thought he could increase his mid corner speed..

Look at the figures in this comparison test of a VOC car (Volvo Original Cup which have maybe 150 hp) , a standard road car and a GpH car 9with about 230 bhp, close ratio box, 5.14 axle and big AP brakes)




"the faster it goes, the bigger the difference"

Look at the interval 60 to 150 km/hr a typical exit from a T junction to 24mph to 93 mph, the car that the National Championship winning driver who focus on acceleration ---and it seems he's focused on braking with those big APs on the car) takes 330m to reach 150 km/hr and just 11.1 seconds.
The stock car takes 26.8 seconds---317.46% longer, the stock but "blueprinted" VOC car takes 20.9 seconds or 188% more time.
Once thru the gears out of one corner and the guy who focused on making a quicker car just in acceleration got a PILE of time, and probably another pile by holding that speed longer before braking..

Now look at say a kink where you backed off and scrubbed speed hit on straight to say 100 km/hr or 62 mph---
The car where the guy read all the wisdom of the Intra-webz where and didn't focus on acceleration his car took 18.4 seconds and 666m, the guy with just fin putsning took 13.7 and 495m, and that guy who didn't listen and thought about "AX" (acceleration in the local lingo) had way less fun, he only had 6,9sek and 244m
Or....Stocker was 267% more time, VOC was 198.5% more time

one or two T junctions and just a couple of kinks at 62mph and our guy who focused on the wrong stuff is going to be a few minutes ahead on just AX....

As is obvious in the photo of him in car, he can barely corner because he was so mistakenly fixated on AX and braking that he neglected to learn to go fast in the corner..

As a ex WRC driver and SM Champion once said to me---and a gang of others at a meeting I dragged him to "its a drag race between corners".
But I guess he didn't have the advantage of the Web to set him straight--Cause I spent a lot of time listening to him and his engine builder mistakenly blather about torque and flexibility specifically in the context of 2 wheel drive cars and delivery and years later that engine builder was still leading people astray such as Per Eklund who he fooled into winning some EM titles in Rallycross...

NOTE, if you guys can't finger out enough of the body of the article, start another thread and ask for translation, I'll teach youse guys to read.

I want to preface all of my questions and answers...In my opinion I should be one of the slowest drivers out here, my driving sucks 9 times out of 10, and I have a lot to work on to be good. I hope that the entire field kicks my ass at every rally, I don't believe I should ever be able to beat an open class car or even an SP car at this point, and I love getting beat by 2wd cars. That being said most of the time I am better than 3/4 of the field, which really sucks, because I average 3 rallies a season, and that is NOTHING!

Quote
Morison

Quote
Tom B
In my very humble opinion, balance transfer can and should happen before the corner, not in the middle of it, if you are adjusting a line mid corner, you probably made a mistake.

How many rally drivers have you heard say they've done stages without mistakes?
How about decreasing radius corners... "Long L5>3"

Shouldn't our first focus be on not making the mistake originally, i.e. a better skillset in road reading and how to take a corner fastest, or a better suspension for the car? L5>3 is two corners...not one.

Quote
Morison

Quote
Tom B
I'm talking about the last 3/4 of the field here. Opening the throttle and using braver braking points would increase times tenfold in comparison to LFB.

Interesting perspective... What I've seen is that the back of the pack tends to be more interested in braking and accelerating without focusing much on what happens IN the corners. (I see a LOT of cars out there driving around corners with their wheels turned.)

I would love to see HARD acceleration from corners and HARD, BRAVE braking prior to entry with shitty cornering, but I rarely do. Even in the top 1/4 of cars, me included, there are very few folks that get this down without muddying the waters with more "stuff" to do instead of focusing on basics. In the last 1/4 of cars its usually slow braking and slow acceleration with the wheels turned cornering.

I am literally years away from focusing on LFB because I have so much to improve on in braking and acceleration, not to mention notes and co-driver teamwork. So if I can beat 3/4 of the field 3/4 of the time without LFB, why should that be a focus for that 3/4 of the field?

---

-Tom
DemonRallyTeam | Fine Tuning | CTS Turbo & RP Turbos | RalleyTuned | JRM | Meister Autowerks
Spitfire EFI | Product Apparel | JVAB Imports | NLS | AP Tuning | USRT

Add us on Facebook | Next Event: 2013 Olympus Rally June 22-23 Olympia, WA

Quote
Tom B
I would love to see HARD acceleration from corners and HARD, BRAVE braking prior to entry with shitty cornering, but I rarely do. Even in the top 1/4 of cars, me included, there are very few folks that get this down without muddying the waters with more "stuff" to do instead of focusing on basics. In the last 1/4 of cars its usually slow braking and slow acceleration with the wheels turned cornering.

My mind works the other way, which is why we probably differ on the value of LFB at the entry level of the sport.

Poor cornering means lower speeds through the corner which means a slower starting speed on the straights. Conservation of momentum and 'clean' lines is what makes for fast stage times. (of course, in addition to having the right car under you to start with)

My view is that once you have the cornering figured out you can start going deeper and deeper with the braking. On the other hand, if you can't corner worth a damn you can only brake so-late until you can't make the corner.

The big BUT in all of this is that none of this learning has to, or should, happen independently. When you test for changes you only want to change one thing at a time. That doesn't mean that you have to develop skills or vehicle spec in isolation from each other. Left foot braking doesn't replace or change the importance of hard straight line braking nor does it slow down hard acceleration. (arguably it can improve hard acceleration)

Well Tom I think Keith has got it all figured out, you really ought to pay attention cause your poor cornering is killing your stage time and the results have shown it.
I mean Tom look at this photo and tell me that's good cornering


You're on the gas hard when you you should have been pussy-footing with heel and toe and LFB. Obviously
Maybe you should try it and then you can beat the few remaining turbo 4wd cars that you currently can't beat.

You're frickin hilarious John.

You go back and forth between 'even the fastest of the fast in north america are pathetically slow' to 'my buddy doesn't need to get any faster' depending on what serves your purposes.
I come from a 'when you stop learning/improving you might as well stop' school of thought.

That aside, I wasn't talking about Tom and/or his speed or skill. We all know he's quick and don't try and say I said otherwise because I didn't. Am I saying he could be quicker once he understood and uses LFB... yes. (Although every golf I've driven rotates so easily it's not the best example)

In the end, everything you guys are saying about LFB tells me that we have different understandings of what it is about and where it is best used. Like I've said earlier, my understanding is LFB doesn't replace RFB, or HARD, LATE braking, or anything else you do. It is a part of a package of tools.

John, do you use a crescent wrench when you're working on a car? Do you sometimes use the wrong wrench size because it is 'close enough' and will get the job done if you're careful? Do you use an impact gun on every bolt cause it's quciker?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/20/2011 11:34AM by Morison.

As someone who sorta gets paid to slide around on the white slippy stuff, here's my thoughts:

Could most people make up more time by braking harder & later? Absolutely.
Does everyone need to LFB? Absolutely not.
Would people be faster with it? Absolutely.....IF & WHEN they are comfortable with it.

I can say that when I was first experimenting with it I went slower because I was too concerned with developing the finesse with my clutch leg. When I finally got over that and started to try it at hillclimbs, I only used it on the corners where if I effed it up I'd end up running into the mountain instead of off a cliff.

I can say on snow/ice it makes a tremendous difference on my Evo - and the ACD system reacts differently when you're doing it. On FWD street cars with no LSD I think its pretty safe to say (again, on ice) that corner entry speeds can be brought up 10% if you adjust the balance of the car using LFB. If you're in a lower powered car, that means you're going to exit the corner just a tick or two higher in the rev band too which shouldn't hurt.

Dave

Dave, i wasn't even going to bring up the active diff part of the equation.

I 'trained' my left foot by using it to brake in day to day driving. Learning to finesse the brake with the 'blunt' foot in daily traffic really helped once on stage - even under the harder application on stage.

John, it seems to me that your argument about acceleration is good. However, when comparing similar equipment, it is clear that cornering has a huge impact on times as well.

This explains why a bunch of Golves & Wabbits & Scions & CRXs are able to beat 3/4+ of the field at US events DESPITE the fact that they are way down on both HP and acceleration compared to the 4wd cars....

looking at your table.

60 to 110kmh
Stock 8.85 seconds
VOC 6.95 seconds
Nat 4.20 seconds

40 to 110kmh
Stock 10.75 seconds
VOC 8.85 seconds
Nat 5.30 seconds

So, carrying speed through the corner does make a huge difference. In this dramatic case of over-slowing to 40kmh rather than ripping a corner at 60kmh, the driver who carries more speed makes up a couple of seconds in this scenario in acceleration time alone. And this is in addition to any time made up during the duration of the corner and time made up while not slowing during the previous straight or puttzing along toward the entrance of the turn.

Granted this is a dramatic example (your table doesn't have anything closer together and I don't feel like doing computations) but, it can't be too far off considering the results we see and the experience of many spectators.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/20/2011 05:00PM by Josh Wimpey.

I remember the day the light came on for me, when I went from being mid time sheet to being right there with the top open class cars in my Golf.

There were three parts to this, 1) the region decided to call me a class 1 driver for some reason so I figured I better live up to that, 2) I saw in car video of Carl Jardavall driving down the same stages I was but going much faster, 3) I saw 1997 UK championship with FWD cars also going much faster then I was.

It became clear I just needed to drive faster. I did not think about left foot braking, entry points, or any of that, I just decided I could get around corners much faster then I thought I could so I did. Much to my surprise the car stayed on the road and it really did not take much more effort, in someways it was easier to drive the car faster, it just flowed through the stage. I figured if I thought that was a 2nd gear corner well I was wrong it should be a third gear corner so I left it in 3rd and just went faster.

In short I was making time in the turns simply because I slowed down less for them weather with my right foot or my left really did not matter. The only driving thing I ever really worked on was the idea there is no coasting in a rally car, it is all go or all brake nothing between when not in a turn.

I am with Tom, I do not know how I drive fast vs others, I know I never really practiced, the 2wd car is a handy cap and I only had 150HP or so to work with. When I see my incar video I see lots of wasted time, big mistakes, early braking, lifting when I did not need to etc. I know I could go a lot faster if I ever got good.

"I know I could go a lot faster if I ever got good."

quoted for truth...I remember thinking I knew how to drive, in my fancybutt (to me at least) awd car, and then saw how the Hintz bros cleaned my clock in their 2wd car, and set about learning how to drive. I might have some overall stage wins and some kewl plastic trophies, but I still don't really know how to drive. I LFB on slow corners to try to keep the boost up but don't have enough finesse to really make use of it in the fast stuff, I more or less stand on either the brake or throttle and try not to get those two mixed up.

There is a great book about competing at the ISDE (international Six Days Enduro) on motorcycles that i read 10 tears ago when I was thinking of qualifying for the US team. Basically he says, "If you are not accelerating, you should be braking. There is no coasting." I think that is what I am going to work on this year. I know I am a pussy when it comes to braking. I know I am a pussy in 5's and 6's, but I know this, don't claim to be a fast guy yet, but I will get there...

"If you are not accelerating, you should be braking. There is no coasting."

That's a pretty good way to look at it. One of the biggest things you can do to improve your rally driving is to get a motorcross bike, dosen't matter is it's a 100cc POS or 250cc POS, just beat the piss out of it. Weight transfer, finding traction, fitness, reflexes etc etc. You can learn a hell of alot.

Also some seat time in a shift kart, everything is so exaggerated and happens so damn fast you learn to react quicker and anticipate whats going to happen. I picked up an old 80cc shifter kart a few years ago for $250.00, it cost me another $90 for a piston and it's been screaming fun since. Lots to learn here too.

LFBing should be the last thing you should worry about as a driver, get the fundamentals down first. I have no idea of it's effectiveness in RWD, but in FWD and AWD being proficient at LFBing will no doubt make a fast driver faster via having more control of the car.