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john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
Mega Moderator
Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA
Join Date: 12/20/2005
Age: Fossilized
Posts: 14,152

Rally Car:
Saab 96 V4



Re: Brake compounds?
April 21, 2011 02:47PM
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Gravel Spray
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If you are not accelerating, you should be braking. There is no coasting."

That's a pretty good way to look at it. One of the biggest things you can do to improve your rally driving is to get a motorcross bike, dosen't matter is it's a 100cc POS or 250cc POS, just beat the piss out of it. Weight transfer, finding traction, fitness, reflexes etc etc. You can learn a hell of alot.

You know it never occurred to me....thumbs up smiley It's sorta saying:
Get a bunch of easy seat time (easy since there are so many more venues /opportunities to drive something which in every parameter you can think of is MORE (insane quick acceleration, excellent suspension even on some 20 year old thing, fantastic brakes we'd die for , 5-6 speed lightning quick dog box stock, and above all reliability so you don't spend hours and hours working on it---and taking away from car prep time )
searching for grip and having your errors strongly and vigorously reinforced ( the impact with the ground and the the bike landing on your head has a way of focusing the mind on what you did to end up there)

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Also some seat time in a shift kart, everything is so exaggerated and happens so damn fast you learn to react quicker and anticipate whats going to happen. I picked up an old 80cc shifter kart a few years ago for $250.00, it cost me another $90 for a piston and it's been screaming fun since. Lots to learn here too.

Agreed here, too.
In both cases you get soething that is MORE intense, and if you stick with it enough to learn even fairly rudimentary things when the grip is crappy and the performance of the equipment so relatively speak directly brutal, then driving a relatively milder, slower reacting thing down a relatively smoother, easier road, is by comparison, easier.

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LFBing should be the last thing you should worry about as a driver, get the fundamentals down first. I have no idea of it's effectiveness in RWD, but in FWD and AWD being proficient at LFBing will no doubt make a fast driver faster via having more control of the car.

According to some really fast guys---like decent results in SM level, LFB is since its a application of brakes and rwd car also have brakes, it works as well for them as in FWD and 4wd.
The whole point of LFB is to load the outside front wheel so it bites and it drives or carves around the turn on a tighter radius than "just driving".
For decades the idea was to use the left foot to LOCK UP the rear and swing the back out because as long as the rear is out, weight is shifted forward and outwards, and the LEFT FOOT was used because the originators, mainly a bunch of Finns like Lampinen, Aaltonen, Toivonen (daddy), Makinen (the original) were driving Saab 96s and Austin Minis with tiny motors making very low bhp and were geared VERY SHORT in axle ratio like 5.85 in the Saabs---so they were busier than hell shifting WHILE braking and no time for the clutch.

Additionally way back then the route was sent out to entrants at least a month ahead of time and in all of the South of Europe, practice was basically unlimited. I read way back when I had no idea what they were talking about "Okej, we did each stage 8 times or 10 times, notes are perfect".
THOSE GUYS knew that they should brake THIS MUCH on this corner and just a little finesse touch at this one.
We don't have that opportunity or experience.

Dave Clark once said about this as he had become a High Priest of LFB when he got the Dodge Omni GLH and I was wrinkling my nose:
YOU don't have to LFB cause you have the brakes set up so it locks at will and you brake so late and hard...

First things first.

Oh to the boys changing the terms---nobody is really suggesting that one not carry safe speeds in corners. The point is the "turns" occupy a tiny percentage of SS time, the speeds even of Loeb or Grönholm in a T junction on gravel are right down to 40km/hr---if you find in car with rpm, speed and gear displayed. Thus I see its utter folly for newbs to worry about "carrying momentum" more than that.

Again the whole thing is like newbs with one event on moto-cross bikes yammering endlessly about "needing" to learn to do tabletops>


It's a valuable technique, whaaaaaaaa!!!!


Nice colors in the on the bike, eh?
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hoche
Michel Hoche-Mong
Infallible Moderator
Location: Campbell, CA
Join Date: 02/28/2006
Age: Possibly Wise
Posts: 1,156

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Golf, Golf, RX-3



Re: Brake compounds?
April 21, 2011 04:21PM
Uh, John? That dude is Right Foot Braking.
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Robert Culbertson
Out of this dumpster fire
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Join Date: 08/15/2010
Posts: 1,236



Re: Brake compounds?
April 21, 2011 05:13PM
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hoche
Uh, John? That dude is Right Foot Braking.
You need someone getting flat on an old british bike (or a 80s Honda). Thinking of a Rickman doing a table/whip at a MX track is actually comical.
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starion887
starion887
Elite Moderator
Join Date: 09/06/2006
Posts: 798


Re: Brake compounds?
April 21, 2011 07:34PM
Quote
Gravel Spray
I have no idea of it's effectiveness in RWD,

Occasionally I LFB good to keep the turbo spooled up in certain circumstances. Most often it is used to transfer weight going into a corner while doing other things with my feet, to get the rear to come around. (Often the same is done with the clutch and a heavy flywheel, though, breaking the rear loose.) Sometimes LFB is good to be able to make quicker changes from brake to throttle in tight stuff.

Mark B.
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wildert
Brian Klausen
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Location: Denmark
Join Date: 03/21/2006
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VW Golf GTi 16V


Re: Brake compounds?
April 22, 2011 12:13AM
Quote
Gravel Spray
"If you are not accelerating, you should be braking. There is no coasting."

.....

LFBing should be the last thing you should worry about as a driver, get the fundamentals down first. I have no idea of it's effectiveness in RWD, but in FWD and AWD being proficient at LFBing will no doubt make a fast driver faster via having more control of the car.

I sooo have to agree... I drove at a rallysprint yesterday, and in a couple of the heats we ended up in traffic, and I was stunned at how early some of my competitors brakes. It seriously took me by surprise so bad that I nearly rearended one of them. I could just keep up with him on the straights, but every damn corner I just gained and gained on him... Come on! Learn to use the damn anchor!
And it's not like I have some super covert brakes. On the contrary. I run regular 11" setup from a Corrado. Stock rotors and EBC Green Stuff pads... Not exactly race parts as such :-).



Brgrds
Brian

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Francois
Francois Poirier
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Open class Laser RS (RIP), 242 GT on the way!



Re: Brake compounds?
April 22, 2011 05:14PM
One thing I found out is that the ones that think they are slow usually end up being way faster than the one who thought they were fast to start with.



Francois
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