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john vanlandingham

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starion887
And here is a good discussion of the 'calculated' vs 'empirical' views.
http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=361956

Mark B.

Mark a discussion which starts with a schmuck saying --for a 2100 lb car 650 lb/in front and 400 lb in rear is not a good discussion. It is idiots wanking all over their keyboards.
2100 lbs and maybe what/125 bhp..insanity.
Absurd beginning, tainted fruit follows.

JVL..you ain't wrong. When I built the Audi GT a few years ago I tried what had been done previously. Not much info on FWD Audis for rally. The Audi boards yielded people running 600 lb rear springs on some. Since I knew better than that I went with Hoche's VW settings plus a very slight bit stiffer.

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john vanlandingham

Mark a discussion which starts with a schmuck saying --for a 2100 lb car 650 lb/in front and 400 lb in rear is not a good discussion. It is idiots wanking all over their keyboards.

Those are Miatas, they do have a pretty hefty motion ratio on the shocks (2:1 maybe?) and only four inches or so of suspension travel.

And the guy was talking about STS, which is autocrossing on gumball slicks that have a couple rudimentary tread grooves and nudge-nudge-wink-wink 140 treadwear rating (just don't actually drive them on the street). I'm surprised the rates aren't larger, unless he's got some hefty swaybars in there too.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/08/2011 02:28PM by Pete.

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john vanlandingham

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starion887
And here is a good discussion of the 'calculated' vs 'empirical' views.
http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=361956

Mark B.

Mark a discussion which starts with a schmuck saying --for a 2100 lb car 650 lb/in front and 400 lb in rear is not a good discussion. It is idiots wanking all over their keyboards.
2100 lbs and maybe what/125 bhp..insanity.
Absurd beginning, tainted fruit follows.

John, you did not read far enough in that thread to see that the discussion started with a guy spinning around and around on a technical point (the damping factor of 0.7) and then a lot of other guys saying "Hey, you're obsessed with a technical factor and losing sight of the big picture." They then tell him to go and find out what works, i.e., take the empirical approach. This thread was pointed out to support YOUR advice to people: don't over-engineer it, follow on the good experience of others (like some ex-moto guy in Seattle named John vanL. who has been working with this stuff for years). Tryin' to help your point dude......but, swine'll snuffle right over a pearl ya know....

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starion887

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john vanlandingham

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starion887
And here is a good discussion of the 'calculated' vs 'empirical' views.
http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=361956

Mark B.

Mark a discussion which starts with a schmuck saying --for a 2100 lb car 650 lb/in front and 400 lb in rear is not a good discussion. It is idiots wanking all over their keyboards.
2100 lbs and maybe what/125 bhp..insanity.
Absurd beginning, tainted fruit follows.

John, you did not read far enough in that thread to see that the discussion started with a guy spinning around and around on a technical point (the damping factor of 0.7) and then a lot of other guys saying "Hey, you're obsessed with a technical factor and losing sight of the big picture." They then tell him to go and find out what works, i.e., take the empirical approach. This thread was pointed out to support YOUR advice to people: don't over-engineer it, follow on the good experience of others (like some ex-moto guy in Seattle named John vanL. who has been working with this stuff for years). Tryin' to help your point dude......but, swine'll snuffle right over a pearl ya know....

I did read it. I gotta admit I have very little to no patience with silly conesquishers who in my very very kind estimate fuck up everything they get their hands on but 100 times worse, they pontificate on the forums I've seen and its worse than the blind leading the blind.

It's worse because no matter what angle or precedent or results, no matter if you copy and paste a set up sheet for a Sierra, stress to the CUNT (that's a acronym for Can't Understand Normal Thinking) that the suspension settings listed were for a) a 100% stitch welded shell with a
b) fully integrated weld in cage
c) with double the power
d) 40% shorter gearing
e) speeds twice as fast as max and
f) the best drivers money can buy,
the stupid twits will still refuse to even begin to address pointed questions such as "How do you figure you "Need" more than 60% stiffer fronts and 200% stiff rear springs than those guys used on asphalt, when you're driving around in a parking lot in second gear?"

And blather on and recommend to innocents, and sell them junk, often these insane spring rates coupled with ordinary KYB Gr-2 and Gas-a-just street shocks and struts, or the other extreme "race" Konis with 4.5" travel and unknown damp values.

And so it has always been in my experience with especially guys in late 20s with a cumulative time in their "race" car of, seriously maybe 5 hours.
"Suspension is easy" jeered the one jack ass---either a gawd dam accountant or some kind of (always kept extremely vague) "automotive injur-near" which for all we know means he designs glove box closures.

Same in the Volvo world---one live at home with mommy and daddy at 27 ex-spurt, miraculously enough also arriving with the conclusion 600-800 lb in springs are needed and he know how----and don't laugh too hard at this fool, this putz, this schnorrer when you see his You-Tube video where even with 8 x 17" or 10 x 18 whatever boy-virgins need for wheels and insane fat tires, very nearly flips his car in a parking lot at maybe 20 mph---what a ex-spurt.

I cannot force myself to read their drivel, it makes it hard to be a Progressive politically, I have thoughts of forced sterilization, and medieval instruments of "suspension", and having horrible Absolutist whims of retribution.

But I did read it since you suggested it...

I understand that much of the shit spewed endlessly by autocrossers and amatuer roadracers , so often fighting for seconds with up to 2 other people in their class, is spewed not as "sharing information" or what socio-linguists call "affiliative dialog" but either childish attempts at establish their status in some self-defined hierarchy, or simply as "social markers", key phrases that obviously nonsensical to any outside observer, within sub-sects of sub normal people are "points of recognition".
IE when those fools talk their rarified shit and I roll my eyes, or ask "what planet you on? The one with 2.5 times earth's gravity?" they know I am not open to meeting them behind the garage for some mutual pleasure and release. Somebody else pops up and says "OH! I need 600 lb front springs too! Yoooooooooooooooo hooooooo!!! What springs you use in the rear? OOOooohhhhh! That big!!! You beast!"

Here lemme try embedding a vid
<object width="480" height="390"><param name="movie" value="

?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param>

You notice when those 2 auto-crossers "connected"?
That's because they were attuned to the social markers, and you aren't.

Good thing your not the kind of guy that gets easily upset :-).

---

Brgrds
Brian





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/09/2011 04:09AM by wildert.

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wildert
Good thing your not the kind of guy that gets easily upset :-).

Yeah iddnit. Which one is me in the skit?

<object width="480" height="390"><param name="movie" value="

?

Well it's simple - you're NOT going fast, so who cares if the car is scary-twitchy at 90, we want the car to be instantly rotate at 20.

Autocrossers do a lot of things that look weird, like spending $2k a year on tires to run in a "stock" class...

autocrossers aren't all bad ... like the ones who would rather be doing something else.

I autocross quite a bit, last year i won my class (7 peeps?) and took 5th in the region (100?), i was running in 1st for a while, but soon as i had a rally overlap the autoX schedule I did the proper thing (rallied!) lost autox points and dropped a few positions. Think i had an overall podium finish 11 of 14 times i race, (class win every time but 2)

My car is beatup, eats oil. my big trick was giving up figuring out suspension and letting someone who is good at suspension, do it for me. Odi revalved my STI struts and now they rock. do i understand what he did? Nope. Do i now i have inserts? I dunno. Does my car handle better? Yes .

So now i'm doing the same thing with my rally car. Giving up on figuring out suspension and let a pro figure it out for me. I'll spend my time practicing thank you very much.

So you could spend a lot of time figuring out your suspension.. but unless that's really your interest (mine is actually driving, not wrenching) I would find someone who is known for good setups, and spend your time finding new and fun practice roads.


now I Just need my JVL patented "sooper bitchN suspenders" to arrive, I'll bolt them up and go (hopefully fast)

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A1337STI
autocrossers aren't all bad ... like the ones who would rather be doing something else.

I'd rather play Dirt 2 than autocross and I hate Dirt 2!
Not that I've ever autocrossed. Then again, I can't even bring myself to go to a rallycross these days. Time commitment and driving time just aren't asympotically worthwhile to me.

A local Subaru guy is taking the STI struts I have and is going to get them revalved into budget rally struts. We'll see how it works.
Not sure what the other guy is doing. We're meeting at DMV tomorrow to try to get the title resolved so he can drive the car.

I love wrenching, but I guess my point is more that I want to get it right the first time. And the more I think I understand it the more I want to hand the project to someone else, while I skive off and drink beer.

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aj_johnson
I love wrenching, but I guess my point is more that I want to get it right the first time. And the more I think I understand it the more I want to hand the project to someone else, while I skive off and drink beer.

It may sound strange to some but I really think the proper order is drinking beer first, then understanding comes next.
Or drive car with good set up, then drink beer and then understand.
Problem is when we don't understand enough is that we can argue our way up a million dead ends that "seem" logic or "ideally it should be balh blah" but in the end you still gotta bolt them up, drive the car and feel what is right.
And clearly rally suspension for gravel seems to baffle most in the business who have paid the rent selling stuff to guys on some idealized surfaces.

REAL understanding always comes after experience, so one way to get real understanding is to get real experience.

Think of it this way: before you ever had your first REAL girlfriend, you probably had though a lot about the ol' horisontal mambo, hiding the zucchini, the 2 backed beast, etc......and fat lotta good all that thinking did once you had inserted the ligham into the yoni!
Afterwards you didn't think a lot, you just wanted to insert lingham into yoni as often as possible.. That was correct! Your body knew what was needed!

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john vanlandingham
It may sound strange to some but I really think the proper order is drinking beer first, then understanding comes next.
Or drive car with good set up, then drink beer and then understand.
Problem is when we don't understand enough is that we can argue our way up a million dead ends that "seem" logic or "ideally it should be balh blah" but in the end you still gotta bolt them up, drive the car and feel what is right.
And clearly rally suspension for gravel seems to baffle most in the business who have paid the rent selling stuff to guys on some idealized surfaces.

REAL understanding always comes after experience, so one way to get real understanding is to get real experience.

Think of it this way: before you ever had your first REAL girlfriend, you probably had though a lot about the ol' horisontal mambo, hiding the zucchini, the 2 backed beast, etc......and fat lotta good all that thinking did once you had inserted the ligham into the yoni!
Afterwards you didn't think a lot, you just wanted to insert lingham into yoni as often as possible.. That was correct! Your body knew what was needed!

For those that skim, what I'm reading here is:

Step 1) drink beer
Step 2) drive car...or do this as step 1
Step 3) think about car's handling
Step 4) play hide the stick
Step 5) repeat steps 1-4 until suspension is dialed in.



Dave

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NoCoast

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A1337STI
autocrossers aren't all bad ... like the ones who would rather be doing something else.

I'd rather play Dirt 2 than autocross and I hate Dirt 2!
Not that I've ever autocrossed. Then again, I can't even bring myself to go to a rallycross these days. Time commitment and driving time just aren't asympotically worthwhile to me.

A local Subaru guy is taking the STI struts I have and is going to get them revalved into budget rally struts. We'll see how it works.
Not sure what the other guy is doing. We're meeting at DMV tomorrow to try to get the title resolved so he can drive the car.

i thought you were in the car with brian at the autocross at pikes peak. where you killed the cones.

Yep, that about sums it up nicely.

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DaveK

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john vanlandingham
It may sound strange to some but I really think the proper order is drinking beer first, then understanding comes next.
Or drive car with good set up, then drink beer and then understand.
Problem is when we don't understand enough is that we can argue our way up a million dead ends that "seem" logic or "ideally it should be balh blah" but in the end you still gotta bolt them up, drive the car and feel what is right.
And clearly rally suspension for gravel seems to baffle most in the business who have paid the rent selling stuff to guys on some idealized surfaces.

REAL understanding always comes after experience, so one way to get real understanding is to get real experience.

Think of it this way: before you ever had your first REAL girlfriend, you probably had though a lot about the ol' horisontal mambo, hiding the zucchini, the 2 backed beast, etc......and fat lotta good all that thinking did once you had inserted the ligham into the yoni!
Afterwards you didn't think a lot, you just wanted to insert lingham into yoni as often as possible.. That was correct! Your body knew what was needed!

For those that skim, what I'm reading here is:

Step 1) drink beer
Step 2) drive car...or do this as step 1
Step 3) think about car's handling
Step 4) play hide the stick
Step 5) repeat steps 1-4 until suspension is dialed in.



Dave

And don't skimp on step 2 (and 4 for that matter).... but particularly step 2...
Actually i would say that a LOT of time should be spent at step 2, before even TRYING to go to step 3.
It requires having LOTS of seat time and experience and thus just knowing by heart and not logic, what the car does in every situation.
Getting in a car driving it anger for the first time is merely pissing around a bit. Sure, you may be trying to push the loud pedal through the floor on the straights, but that says nothing about handling. Puttering around a corner doesn't teach you anything about the REAL handling of the car either.

So get something close enough to "damn good" ((C) JVL) suspension, slap it on, don't worry, and go practice... and don't change a thing until at LEAST a year later.
That is assuming you'd actually spent that year getting some seat time, getting the speed up, and actually properly getting on the limit in the corners, all the hairy situations, etc.
THEN you will start to form some sort feeling or mental image (illness?) of how the car ACTUALLY handles - not how you are incapable of making it handle.

Note... in the above "you" means anybody who wan't to go racing but doesn't have that much experience seat time. They are in danger of trying to remedy some perceived flaw with the cars handling, where it actually is the driver that is still not capable enough.

I've been around rallying for +8 years - and I've seen it too many times - and know I've been doing it myself :-).

Don't try to fix the car - most likely "you" will be the limiting factor for a LONG time...

---

Brgrds
Brian