Motor melt - Break-in suggestions (was rebuild suggestions)

Fair enough spend the money elsewhere, but if you've got the motor apart and you stumble on a set at the junkers, keep em in mind.

Quote
aj_johnson
Fair enough spend the money elsewhere, but if you've got the motor apart and you stumble on a set at the junkers, keep em in mind.

That's the spirit!
There's a lotta, "wot da fawk, I haz one laying here" type of thing and sure maybe then.
but expending thought and (gasp) money for 1% 3% maybe type things, Idunno........

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Gee that's not a glob of solder, thats' a WAD of solder. Have to wonder if that, or it's twin, got into the water pump or a head passage or turbo cooling line or somewhere and caused some real overheating havoc. Seeing that. I would be really poking things into all cooling pasages (like in the head) that I could to see if something like this wad is lodged anywhere; cold tanking won't get that out.

And I'm sure you're putting in a known fresh timing belt.

Mark B.

I'd be thinking new radiator....

You really don't want the car to show up on satellite imaging because the radiator is plugging.

what are the recommendations for breaking in a new motor?

It varies a lot. My routines:
- If re-assembling, prelube bearings and cam lobes with good MoS2 stuff, never put it on the rings though
- Never use synthetic oil in a break in period so the rings can seat well (I Use Castrol GTX; and run the first event with it.)
- Prime oil pump prior to first start
- Start and look for quick oil pressure
- Idle at 1000-1500 rpm for 5-10 minutes while looking for leaks, making adjustments
- Get out and drive right away, no extended idling
- Do some MILD throttle run-ups in RPM's while in gear interspersed with some short steady throttle periods
- Increase the throttle pressure and thus increase engine loading gradually during RPM run-up the 1st 25 miles or so
- Avoid full throttle in higher gears until maybe 50 miles (that's the conditions of maximum torque conditions on rings, pistons, bearings); I want everything well seated in before putting maximum loading for any extended periods on the engine parts.
- Try to get a few hundred street miles on engine prior to 1st rally, but at least 50 street miles at a minimum
- Change oil and filter after 200-300 miles; run a 2nd batch of non-synthetic oil through 1st rally or up to 500-1000 miles then switch to full (true 100%) synthetic

Mark B.

Quote
starion887
It varies a lot. My routines:
- If re-assembling, prelube bearings and cam lobes with good MoS2 stuff, never put it on the rings though
- Never use synthetic oil in a break in period so the rings can seat well (I Use Castrol GTX; and run the first event with it.)
- Prime oil pump prior to first start
- Start and look for quick oil pressure
- Idle at 1000-1500 rpm for 5-10 minutes while looking for leaks, making adjustments
- Get out and drive right away, no extended idling
- Do some MILD throttle run-ups in RPM's while in gear interspersed with some short steady throttle periods
- Increase the throttle pressure and thus increase engine loading gradually during RPM run-up the 1st 25 miles or so
- Avoid full throttle in higher gears until maybe 50 miles (that's the conditions of maximum torque conditions on rings, pistons, bearings); I want everything well seated in before putting maximum loading for any extended periods on the engine parts.
- Try to get a few hundred street miles on engine prior to 1st rally, but at least 50 street miles at a minimum
- Change oil and filter after 200-300 miles; run a 2nd batch of non-synthetic oil through 1st rally or up to 500-1000 miles then switch to full (true 100%) synthetic

Mark B.

Mark sounds good BUT!
preface things with IF YOU HAVE NEW GROUND SURFACES if new crank grind or new cam. Bores take a coupla heat cycles iwth modern finishing techniques and rings.
GROUND surfaces like crank and cam require the "break in"..

But!
you should change your rpm to 2000 ish--ie 2000 to2200-2400.
You have to get the heat up...
Which do you think is going to get you yourself warmer sooner on a frost day: twiddling your thumbs, or doing jumping jacks?

2000-2200 UP to temp stable and fans cycle (because youse ARE running an electric fan---aren't youse?)

Then dump oil and water. Examine filter guts.

Aside from that--good policy.
BUT those are pretty important deviations---2000-2200

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Good points John. I am not sure why I said 1000-1500; I actually keep things in the 1500-1800 range. Keeps the oil flowing well too.

Understood on the modern cylinder finishing. But not all shops are equal nor do all shops have the latest hones, etc. So, I prefer to treat the rings the old fashioned way to be sure. Vary the RPM's and loads and avoid constant load and RPM conditions; gradually load the rings to seat them well.

I've never drained the coolant; never saw the need; always take good care with gasket sealers, clean, smooth gaskets surfaces, and proper torques, to avoid coolant leaks. And I never opened a filter; probably a good practice. But I'm meticulous in keeping things clean, and cleaning out all bores/pockets in the block and crank. A hot soapy water rinse of all block and head parts, followed by 2 scalding hot water rinses, seems to really get the major engine parts clean.

Mark B.

Perhaps a very simple question - but how does one 'prime' the oil pump? Just manually turn the crank a bit?

Thanks for the other info too - should be starting this week - and then start putting some miles on the motor.

Looks like the key is really to bed the rings, then a couple of hundred miles. Oil change, and filter...perhaps another couple hundred miles then - rock and roll!

Quote
vbares
Perhaps a very simple question - but how does one 'prime' the oil pump? Just manually turn the crank a bit?

Thanks for the other info too - should be starting this week - and then start putting some miles on the motor.

Looks like the key is really to bed the rings, then a couple of hundred miles. Oil change, and filter...perhaps another couple hundred miles then - rock and roll!

On your VW motor, easiest thing is to have the rubber band that runs the cams off, and spin the auxiliary shaft with a decent drill unto the oil flows from the cam journals. Aux shaft runs the oil pump. Cam bearings are the furthest things from the pump so when oil flows out there, you know the whole thing is full of oil.

But for break in: have you ground the crank? Do you have a new ground cam? If not then only thing "new" is the cylinder walls to bed in and you'd have to tell me what rings you have to get a proper answer.

See in the OLD days, at least in the Ol' Bundesrepublik, the OEM ring supplier would sell 2 different sets of rings depending on what youse had done. If you had bored the thing then you'd buy their ,,Normform'' because the motor was being brought back to the ''Norm''' or standards.
If you were doing a ''refresh'' and re-ringing it without boring then they would sell you ,,Paßform'' ie it "passes' or 'fits'.
Normform would usually be a hard chrome top ring or for 'turbo ausführung' it would be a moly inlaid insert in the top ring and very styrict cylinder finish and break in.
Wenn du halb überholtet deine motor und mit gebraucht zylinderern brauchtet, denn verwendet sich eine eisern topp ring-------oooops

When thou 'half-overhauled' thine motor and with used cylinders used, then choosest thee an iron top ring (howz that for a faithful word by word 'ubersätzung'?)(You gonna drive some Allemanisch PKV, you better at least read Allemanisch amigo mio)

Also der grosse frage ist: have you bored the cylinder and what rings are you using?
Only then can we say.
Passform was softer iron to conform to a worn bore, wall finish was coarser-er and they took a bit of break in, but dam they worked good.
Normform was ready in 2-3 proper heat cycles, and then improved a smidge more in 1000-1500 miles.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Danke!

No rebuild - I found a new crate motor, bought just the bottom end, paid what it would have cost in machine shop labor, and it was quick - so seemed to make sense.

This is an interference engine - so taking the timing belt off and spinning the motor seems like a bad idea.

I've not been able to locate a sencondary or Aux shaft on the oil pump (illustration included).

all cam lobes have been molly'd, as well as lifter buckets.

Quote
john vanlandingham
On your VW motor, easiest thing is to have the rubber band that runs the cams off, and spin the auxiliary shaft with a decent drill unto the oil flows from the cam journals. Aux shaft runs the oil pump. Cam bearings are the furthest things from the pump so when oil flows out there, you know the whole thing is full of oil.

Vittorio, from John's decription, it sounds like this motor has an auxiliary shaft driven by the timing belt....is that corect? (I don't know these motors, and I can't quite tell from the illiustration how it drives.) If so, is there a cover over the timing belt that is coverting this auxiliary shaft? I think what he is saying is take off the cover, take off the belt, and use a drill and adapter bit to spin just the auxiliary shaft without spinning the crack or cam shafts. It will insure that the pump is primed (has oil inside for quick oil pickup when you do start it) and gets a lot of the air out of the oiling system passages. Preferrably do this as soon prior to initial start as you can, but if you need the t-belt and covers off, that could be a slow process to re-install. Spinning at a few hundred RPM (low drill speed) does the trick.

FYI, some engines have the dristributor driven off of the crank or cam by a gear, and these have a way to engage the oil pump shaft with a hex or flat-blade-screwdriver-like tang off the bottom of the dristributor shaft. These are easy to prime as you just pull the distributor and use a long shaft with the same hex or tang on a drill to spin just the pump.

If you have the pump belt driven then this is not too hard either.

A chain driven pump under a sealed timing cover is hard to impossible to prime, as you have the engine oil area partly dissassembeld. to spin the pump (like our Mistu 2.6L). On these, you just have to liberally prelube things and pack a bit of Vaseline in the pump to help it have good, quick suction.

Mark B.

Looks like an oil pumnp IN front cover, so it ain't a VW.
Fill that fucker with WHITE LITHIUM GREASE and don't turn it once you do.


Oh and I said TURN THE AUX SHAFT to turn the oil pump

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Vittorio, you cant get to the oil pump. Use lots of assembly lube, lube the pump, and crank the motor with the plugs out till you see oil pressure. Then fire it up.

(Some of the Old guys swear you should dump some Marvel Mystery in the cyls and on the cams, but isn't that what you used a lot of lube for? I never have actually done it.)

AJ - same method recommended by the other Audi guys. I took the low pressure switch out and cranked for about 7-10 sec in 3 shots (no plugs) - and voila' we had oil coming out.

Cranked it some more and sure enough we got oil pressure (I also put oil in the oil cooler and filter to help things along).

put more fluids in and started her up.

Tonight we begin the break-in sequence !