What are you looking for in a rally shock?

Funny all the chattering about autocrossers...

There's a guy in my region who has spent easily 10K+ on his suspension he has an office binder just to hold his suspension notes. think he has tripple or quadruple adjustable suspension on a lotus ... yep an entire binder largely filled with notes, print outs, past settings & results ...

I love beating him on my Ofeal revalved stock STI suspension.

It is rather funny to think about. reno has one of the largest sites in the us now, 60 second runs are not uncommon, that's crazy "long" for an autocross. we often get 6 runs a day due to our turn out numbers (60-100) and 15 events a year..

1.5 hours race time after 1 full season. same driving time you can get from 1 rally, or 1 PDX Day. though you do encounter a lot of turns in autox, lots of chances to learn to brake, turn, gas...

AutoX often creates funky suspension setups though... like oh i'm faster on 335 wide tires but they rub, so i'll run a 1,000 pound spring so i get no body roll and no longer rub. and that's faster than a functional suspension and a 225 tire.

or you get people like me in a stock class, so i can't touch the spring so i go over dampened a bit to combat body roll.

Lots and lots of polar opposite examples of what would work well for rally. LOL

Quote
BillyElliot
I didn't say autoX knowledge is the bible. I just said what they do, since they can't change spring rates. I even called them weenies. I Only listed two things I've heard for increasing gas pressure. While, yes, they get something silly like an hour of seat time in 1 minute intervals but I wouldn't say they suck at driving. It's like roundy-round or drags. Apples and oranges as far as setup, style, etc.

Yeah yeah. I'm as always trying to teach you Billy.
I said they yak endlessly about things they have never seen, never worked on, have no idea how it works and no quanitiable data...and for them it's not important since the overarching thing isn't the 3 minutes and 40 seconds of driving they might do in a full 12 or more hour long day, but the yak yak IS the important thing.

i suggest you find and read this book:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_Just_Don%27t_Understand


"You Just Don't Understand: Women and Men in Conversation is a 1990 non-fiction book on language and gender by Deborah Tannen, a professor of sociolinguistics at Georgetown University. It draws partly on academic research by Tannen and others, but is written for a popular audience, and thus uses anecdotes from literature and the lives of Tannen and her family, students and friends.

Tannen takes an approach consistent with difference feminism. From childhood boys and girls learn different approaches to language and communication, which she calls "genderlects". Females engage in "rapport-talk", that is meant to promote social affiliation and emotional connection; whereas men engage in "report-talk", focused on exchanging information with little emotional import. The difference in metamessages, Tannen shows, result in misunderstandings between men and women."....

"Tannen's chapters, broken up into short titled sections of two or three pages, start by distinguishing what men and women seek from conversations: independence and intimacy respectively.

For most women, the language of conversation is primarily a language of rapport: a way of establishing connections and negotiating relationships ... [3]
For most men, talk is primarily a means to preserve independence and negotiate and maintain status in a hierarchical social order.
Men often dominate conversations in public, even where they know less about a subject than a female interlocutor, because they use conversation to establish status and women often listen because they have been socialized to be accommodating, patterns that begin in childhood. These patterns mean, for instance, that men are far more likely to interrupt another speaker, and not to take it personally when they are themselves interrupted, while women are more likely to finish each other's sentences.

These patterns have paradoxical effects. Men use the language of conflict to create connections, and conversely women can use the language of connection to create conflict. "Women and men are inclined to understand each other in terms of their own styles because we assume we all live in the same world."[4] If the genders would keep this mind and adjust accordingly, Tannen believes, much discord between them could be averted."


understanding that the detail, the facts of what men are talking about--particulary little bagatelles of nothingness like shit that makes no difference, helps to understand the talk in only important in as much as it esatblishes social position and "helps bonding"..

That makes any ACTUAL analysis of "stuff" difficult---as we see is often the case here.

As I say---how many here have rebuilt even one shock?
How many of those conesquishers?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I dont know any race car that would want more gas pressure for a stiffer ride but hey if it works go fer it.

In oval you want super soft springs set on bump stops and pile like 1600 pounds of rebound in the shock so the suspension barely moves. I actually think this is what The Ford fiesta is doing in rally cross. Those cars sit on the ground and the susp doesnt look like it drops 4" over the dumb gap jump.

I found a reference sheet for oval cars that told what to adjust on the shock for what the car wanted.

Has any body done this or seen this for rally.

If the rally is mostly sand you set shocks at this # or if loose gravel this # If the car gets loose on entry what would you change for dampening? any info?

Dave had some good info earlier would like to add to that and put something together.

Quote
john vanlandingham

Quote
BillyElliot
I didn't say autoX knowledge is the bible. I just said what they do, since they can't change spring rates. I even called them weenies. I Only listed two things I've heard for increasing gas pressure. While, yes, they get something silly like an hour of seat time in 1 minute intervals but I wouldn't say they suck at driving. It's like roundy-round or drags. Apples and oranges as far as setup, style, etc.

Yeah yeah. I'm as always trying to teach you Billy.
I said they yak endlessly about things they have never seen, never worked on, have no idea how it works and no quanitiable data...and for them it's not important since the overarching thing isn't the 3 minutes and 40 seconds of driving they might do in a full 12 or more hour long day, but the yak yak IS the important thing.

i suggest you find and read this book:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_Just_Don%27t_Understand


"You Just Don't Understand: Women and Men in Conversation is a 1990 non-fiction book on language and gender by Deborah Tannen, a professor of sociolinguistics at Georgetown University. It draws partly on academic research by Tannen and others, but is written for a popular audience, and thus uses anecdotes from literature and the lives of Tannen and her family, students and friends.

Tannen takes an approach consistent with difference feminism. From childhood boys and girls learn different approaches to language and communication, which she calls "genderlects". Females engage in "rapport-talk", that is meant to promote social affiliation and emotional connection; whereas men engage in "report-talk", focused on exchanging information with little emotional import. The difference in metamessages, Tannen shows, result in misunderstandings between men and women."....

"Tannen's chapters, broken up into short titled sections of two or three pages, start by distinguishing what men and women seek from conversations: independence and intimacy respectively.

For most women, the language of conversation is primarily a language of rapport: a way of establishing connections and negotiating relationships ... [3]
For most men, talk is primarily a means to preserve independence and negotiate and maintain status in a hierarchical social order.
Men often dominate conversations in public, even where they know less about a subject than a female interlocutor, because they use conversation to establish status and women often listen because they have been socialized to be accommodating, patterns that begin in childhood. These patterns mean, for instance, that men are far more likely to interrupt another speaker, and not to take it personally when they are themselves interrupted, while women are more likely to finish each other's sentences.

These patterns have paradoxical effects. Men use the language of conflict to create connections, and conversely women can use the language of connection to create conflict. "Women and men are inclined to understand each other in terms of their own styles because we assume we all live in the same world."[4] If the genders would keep this mind and adjust accordingly, Tannen believes, much discord between them could be averted."


understanding that the detail, the facts of what men are talking about--particulary little bagatelles of nothingness like shit that makes no difference, helps to understand the talk in only important in as much as it esatblishes social position and "helps bonding"..

That makes any ACTUAL analysis of "stuff" difficult---as we see is often the case here.

As I say---how many here have rebuilt even one shock?
How many of those conesquishers?

TLDR

Quote
Reamer
I dont know any race car that would want more gas pressure for a stiffer ride but hey if it works go fer it.

In oval you want super soft springs set on bump stops and pile like 1600 pounds of rebound in the shock so the suspension barely moves. I actually think this is what The Ford fiesta is doing in rally cross. Those cars sit on the ground and the susp doesnt look like it drops 4" over the dumb gap jump.

I found a reference sheet for oval cars that told what to adjust on the shock for what the car wanted.

Has any body done this or seen this for rally.

If the rally is mostly sand you set shocks at this # or if loose gravel this # If the car gets loose on entry what would you change for dampening? any info?

Dave had some good info earlier would like to add to that and put something together.

No real "manual" for that since each car reacts differently. You'd probably find something in motorsports manuals from manufacturers (like the R2 Fiesta prep manual or John's Ford books). We've all got our baselines in a way of what to start with but it's not in a book somewhere.

But more is that it's not just "sand" in rally you're talking varying conditions over varying miles. Typically you'll get events that share a similar surface/base. But in other events you can have one stage sand, the next moon crater rocks. YMMV.

Quote
mekilljoydammit
Just to point out for people asking how the knobs and shit work, look at Penske's tech manuals, at http://www.penskeshocks.com/Downloads.php or specifically http://www.penskeshocks.com/files/Adjustable_Manual.pdf which explains in nice detail how the adjusters, canisters, and various piston shapes work. Pretty much everything with clickers, aside from oddballs like Ohlin's TTX shocks, works on some slight variant of exactly the same way, and even the TTX just moves the shims and needles and shit to a different position in the fluid path.

This thread has enough bullshit to make anyones head spin. I was about to post some pictures about the high/ low speed adjuster, but really the best info and summary, so far was already posted in the link above. Look in the Adjustable shock manual, then scroll down to 8660 compression adjuster. Educate yourself there. Thanks to mekilljoydammit for posting the links, I appreciate the straight unadulterated knowledge.

Quote
BillyElliot


But then there's those fancy rod-through-body designs I've seen popping up on race cars that look interesting. Rod those through the shock, so there's no displacement from rod movement, thus no need for nitrogen reservoir. But I've only seen $names$ attached to those shocks, so nothing a weekend rally figher could afford.

The Sachs through rod shocks we used on the Lexus SCCA World Challenge car were in the neighborhood of $20,000.

The links are definitely good links thanks for posting.

I think I got a handle on the shock for now. Im now more interested in what guys have found when making changes. This seems more appropriate for the group of guys on here who have been there and done that.

Oh, BTW Reamer , I'm one of the guys JVL was talking about at NNR. I've raced on the following,
Stock STI suspension (autox, club trial, rallyX) ,
Revalved STI struts with upgraded front sway (autox, hill climb, rallyX)
stock WRX, Wrx with AGX + springs, Koni + springs (autox)
Impreza GC, Stock, then Ksport, then JVAB (autoX, RallyX , full stage rally)

Stock sucks comfy but not very road hugging. on dirt the stock STI suspension wasn't too bad, but lacks travel , and you beak your bumper too much. loss of control over rough stuff.

stock GC is similar but a bit worse.

Ksport was a huge upgrade over stock. (36 clicks of dampen adjustment rebound+compression linked) felt more precise, handles up forces really well (car doesn't jump as easily) my rallyX and full stage results got a lot better. car damage was reduced. I would make adjustments inbetween stages, and in service, tried to compare stage times with different settings .. never felt like i had the dampening right. I had my ride height too low, when i had the suspension feeling really good i bottomed out too much. lost some control over the rough stuff, but much better than stock.

Think i ended up at like 8/12 (front rear)


JVAB was a noticable upgrade over the Ksport setup. increased travel (2 more inches) precise feel is still there, i have slightly (very so slightly) more body roll , on a higher front spring (275 vs 250) . Stages feel smoother now. Car resists airing over jumps more than before. handles compressions very well, much easier on my back it really soaks up the rough stuff. I can go through rougher stuff at at higher speed with no loss of control, compared to before. feels like the chassis moves a little bit more, but it keeps the tires PLANTED. where as before my chassis moved a touch less but i would at times lift a tire stage and even rallyX!

I've won my last 3 rally crosses in a row since the change, (overall win too) with a slightly bent A-arm, and won 2 of my last 4 days of stage. (was leading OL, in idaho and made a driver mistake under braking, slide into a ditch with a 11 second lead. at NNR day 1 Kris-Jon got me by 6 seconds (hats off to ya) . day 2 i was up by over a minute when he had a major off on the last stage.

Things i'de like to change? a touch more clearance between the wheel and the spring perch in the rear (impreza GC specific) i'm still able to run -1.0 camber in the rear with out rubbing, but i need a wheel spacer 5mm (or actual rally rims)

I don't know that there could be any more clearance, because the spring is close to the wheel well. (still can fit a dirt bag over it though)

Price? compare to other products its a Great value. 142% cost of the Ksport, and worth every penny. Still if they could be free, that would be better.

I've only had mine since June. I think i have 5K miles on them and 5 races. they are easy to service. I'm a bad mechanic, i have a hard time figuring out what's wrong with my car, and i get frustrated and then break parts on my car. I change brakes , align it, take the suspension out, change the starter, ps pump. and shy away from everything else.

but i'm able to take these apart for service. its one 1 nut and 1 allen.

Pressure to win, because they kick ass... lol

Thanks for the good write up. This helps me decide what Im looking for and saves money. I do think adjustable is nice but I dont think I need to spend the money if I can get good feed back like this from other competitors. It also looks like Map rally had a good run last week on Jvab stuff. So im sure its good stuff. I know one of the cars he beat on a few stages just bought high end Ohlins.

The JVAB stuff in my car worked great. I have had a few people drive it, one that has driven with most if not all top end stuff, and has done testing for big names, and he was impressed, and had no complaints.

Quote
A1337STI
Oh, BTW Reamer , I'm one of the guys JVL was talking about at NNR. I've raced on the following,
Stock STI suspension (autox, club trial, rallyX) ,
Revalved STI struts with upgraded front sway (autox, hill climb, rallyX)
stock WRX, Wrx with AGX + springs, Koni + springs (autox)
Impreza GC, Stock, then Ksport, then JVAB (autoX, RallyX , full stage rally)

Stock sucks comfy but not very road hugging. on dirt the stock STI suspension wasn't too bad, but lacks travel , and you beak your bumper too much. loss of control over rough stuff.

stock GC is similar but a bit worse.

Ksport was a huge upgrade over stock. (36 clicks of dampen adjustment rebound+compression linked) felt more precise, handles up forces really well (car doesn't jump as easily) my rallyX and full stage results got a lot better. car damage was reduced. I would make adjustments inbetween stages, and in service, tried to compare stage times with different settings .. never felt like i had the dampening right. I had my ride height too low, when i had the suspension feeling really good i bottomed out too much. lost some control over the rough stuff, but much better than stock.

Think i ended up at like 8/12 (front rear)


JVAB was a noticable upgrade over the Ksport setup. increased travel (2 more inches) precise feel is still there, i have slightly (very so slightly) more body roll , on a higher front spring (275 vs 250) . Stages feel smoother now. Car resists airing over jumps more than before. handles compressions very well, much easier on my back it really soaks up the rough stuff. I can go through rougher stuff at at higher speed with no loss of control, compared to before. feels like the chassis moves a little bit more, but it keeps the tires PLANTED. where as before my chassis moved a touch less but i would at times lift a tire stage and even rallyX!

I've won my last 3 rally crosses in a row since the change, (overall win too) with a slightly bent A-arm, and won 2 of my last 4 days of stage. (was leading OL, in idaho and made a driver mistake under braking, slide into a ditch with a 11 second lead. at NNR day 1 Kris-Jon got me by 6 seconds (hats off to ya) . day 2 i was up by over a minute when he had a major off on the last stage.

Things i'de like to change? a touch more clearance between the wheel and the spring perch in the rear (impreza GC specific) i'm still able to run -1.0 camber in the rear with out rubbing, but i need a wheel spacer 5mm (or actual rally rims)

I don't know that there could be any more clearance, because the spring is close to the wheel well. (still can fit a dirt bag over it though)

Price? compare to other products its a Great value. 142% cost of the Ksport, and worth every penny. Still if they could be free, that would be better.

I've only had mine since June. I think i have 5K miles on them and 5 races. they are easy to service. I'm a bad mechanic, i have a hard time figuring out what's wrong with my car, and i get frustrated and then break parts on my car. I change brakes , align it, take the suspension out, change the starter, ps pump. and shy away from everything else.

but i'm able to take these apart for service. its one 1 nut and 1 allen.

Pressure to win, because they kick ass... lol

Hey I got those tubes apart and shortened. Ended up lathing off the lower spring seat on the one tube. You must have poured cement down the threads.

That brings up something for everybody:
keep much out of the threads.
Wash with a stiff bristle brush the dirt off before it turns to cement.

I said to Alex maybe we should snip up a section of bicylcle inner tube to stretch out and slip over the end of the lower seat so its tight on the tube and the seat.. We ought to give it a try.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.