What are you looking for in a rally shock?

I have a good amount of experience with oval track shocks and valving. I have no experience with rally shocks and valving

In oval shocks there are 3 basic pistons
Linear,digressive and high flow.

There are many options with these pistons. How many degrees of dish and bleed holes are the most common.

I do believe to a point you are buying research and development for shocks. TP has Ohlins and if you want what he's got it will cost 20k.

Hopefully we can find what these shocks have in them and get what they got cheaper.


In rally What am I looking for shock speeds and what piston do I need?

Are there any other pistons you guys are using and what do they do?

Do you want more rebound or compression and why?

Do you spend more time on low speed #s or high speed #s?

Are most clicker shocks adjusting compression and rebound together or individually?

I have alot more questions on shock interanls and how they work so lets see what you got. Maybe we can come up with some really good stuff and get what we want for way less $.

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Reamer
Hopefully we can find what these shocks have in them and get what they got cheaper.
Maybe we can come up with some really good stuff and get what we want for way less $.

Man, if I only had a dollar for every time I have heard that.
There are less expensive alternatives, but for the most part, you get what you pay for.
The biggest difference between roundy round and dirt is Nitrogen.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2011 04:17PM by Ratfink.

Talk to Doivi Clarkonnen...he built my setup for a couple grand. I wanted shocks that didn't sweat the small stuff and took care of the big stuff, so he used DMS double progressive springs that soak up the washboards while keeping the chassis outta the potholes, on Bilstein 50mm inserts in DMS housings that haven't overheated and gone soft. He can prolly get you a pretty good idea of what numeric values you should be shooting for if you're homebrewing.

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Jay
Talk to Doivi Clarkonnen...he built my setup for a couple grand. I wanted shocks that didn't sweat the small stuff and took care of the big stuff, so he used DMS double progressive springs that soak up the washboards while keeping the chassis outta the potholes, on Bilstein 50mm inserts in DMS housings that haven't overheated and gone soft. He can prolly get you a pretty good idea of what numeric values you should be shooting for if you're homebrewing.

Say Jay, do you remember where Dave got those 50mm Inserts?

Dontcha have 50s in front and 40s in the rear?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Is Doivi Clarkonnen on this sight? It would be nice to have him chime in with knowledge.

Someone else posted that there high dollar adjustable shocks were better in the rough stuff compared to Jvabs. What do you think made them better? More rebound or compression? Better high speed valving or low speed? Just collecting pieces to the puzzle.

I'm pretty sure they're 50mm all round, but will know more when I get round to removing them to take to Dave's and have him check em over after thier unintended almost 2 year layup. All I know for sure is that boingers are a place where you get what you pay for. I've seen good reviews of the sooperbithchin JVL stuff, I've seen bad reviews of higher dollar stuff, and my direct experience such that it is with Bilstein is positive enough that I would recommend them to anyone. The shop in California does rebuilds for reasonable dollars with no messing about and value received.

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Reamer
Someone else posted that there high dollar adjustable shocks were better in the rough stuff compared to Jvabs. What do you think made them better? More rebound or compression? Better high speed valving or low speed? Just collecting pieces to the puzzle.

From my experience, what makes a $20k set of ohlins better than JVABs for 1/10th the price is the adjustability. You get adjustable high and low speed compression dampening, adjustable rebound dampening, adjustable hydraulic bump stops, adjustable gas pressure. Then along with all that extra adjustability, you get (need) numerous testing days to actually take advantage of it to be able to set it up correctly. Oh, and you get cadmium (or something) plated shock bodies to reduce stiction (whoopty friggen doo). Don't forget about the 2000 dollar rebuilds you need every 5 or so events because the adjusters are fragile.

Persnally, I dont think adjustable shocks can fit in the affordable category for rally. They just take too much abuse for the every-man to be able to maintain them properly. I've seen everything from kyb agx, hot bits, rs&sp, and ohlins have adjuster related failures in rally. I like the idea of set it and forget it bilsteins with "good enough" valving for the varieties of surfaces you can encounter in even a single stage. Although it would be nice if those bilsteins had schrader valves so that they were rebuildable by the end user. How do they get the nitrogen in those things?

Osmosis, prolly. When I had to replace the elderly GAB's that came with my current car, we put a pair of "heavy duty" "Rally use only" "Super Special" KYB insets into those GAB bodies and turned them into "garbage" in about 15 stage miles. Then I re-purposed my GTX 40mm bilsteins to bolt to the car, and they did OK till I got serious with the suspenders. I too think that having mass adjustability is prolly just a good way to get into trouble..

the P30 bilstein my rx7 uses isnt around anymore...so yea..

I've use KYB AGXs on my Impreza RS (daily driver/rally-x duty), DMS 40mm GC8 subie shocks on my 323GTX, Ohlins TTX/TPX on my Evo, and JVABs on my BMW.

As others have mentioned the 'in the field' adjustability is the difference. With the Ohlins I got, I clicked everything to the recommended settings and drove it around a bit. I didn't like how it handled over washboard, so click click click to the high speed compression. Felt "good enough" so I left it that way for 3 seasons of hillclimbs. Adjustability is great, but once dialed in, there's not alot of "need" to tweak with it. Until you're in a place where you can run a lap and do legitimate time comparisons, one might just find that they're actually slowing themselves down with their "fixes."

On the JVAB stuff for the BMW, I knew it was going to be a bit of trial and error going in, but $2k is what I had to budget for suspension, so the adjustable stuff was out of the question. We got the fronts just right on the first try, and on the rears, we're going to try a slightly taller spring and see where that gets us.

Dave

The top 2" of the insert is where the floater piston runs. You can put a schrader on the top corner of the insert as long as it clears the top hat. I had welded bearing Bilstiens that were converted. They work good. The only thing I dont like are the clips on the bottom holding the seal. Most race shocks are threaded.

Does this mean that if the road is washboard you would ad more compression to the shock?

What about for jumps?

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Reamer
The top 2" of the insert is where the floater piston runs. You can put a schrader on the top corner of the insert as long as it clears the top hat. I had welded bearing Bilstiens that were converted. They work good. The only thing I dont like are the clips on the bottom holding the seal. Most race shocks are threaded.

Does this mean that if the road is washboard you would ad more compression to the shock?

What about for jumps?

Except show us a top mount that there's room for a fucking schrader valve sticking out the side, or angled out the corner..


Knock yourself out on your home made remote resevoir homemde things...

I cannot help but reflect on these weekends North Nevada rally we had a couple of Anarchistas in Subies, one in a very expensive "Gotta have a dog box" and diffs and fancy schmantzy turbo whoopie doo and who knows what for suspension, but probably very expensive---since that's how he rolls, the other in a lowly old GC8 with a stock or near stock 2.5 n.a. motor and drive train...and some nice simple basic inverted 40s

When I looked at the stage times, only piddly 7-9 seconds difference here and there...was the decisive thing the expensive turbo?? Dunno.
Was it the ridiculously expensive dog-box that let the one guy crush the other by 9 seconds on a 8 minute stage?

Both have been doing this nonsense some similar amount of time, both similar age, demographics. Obviously different philosphies.
And virtually no significant difference in results.

I feel near compelled only by curiosity to ask: wht do you think all the worry and getting the last 1.5" (if the CV joints will not be over extended and blow the fuck up since about 190mm seem the limit on most CVs) will YIELD in results---and what will those results yield in real life?

And that's assuming you get every step right.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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Reamer
Does this mean that if the road is washboard you would ad more compression to the shock?

Backwards - I softened high speed compression so the car would soak up the washboard better.

Low speed compression - for tuning chassis balance like turn-in, braking, & acceleration movements.

High-speed compression - for tuning quick motions on the shock, like washboard, pot holes, speed bumps.

I *think* jump landings can fall into both categories depending on the abruptness of the landing.

Dave

JVL Im not bashing your stuff so back off the hostility. I give to shits less how fast these guys were last week.

(Unless they come on here with some in site on what they learned about there suspension and what they would want to make it better.)

Im here to learn shocks how they work and what to adjust to make them better in different situations. all said in done I may end up with your stuff so chill.

You can add 3/8" spacer to clear your top hat. And they make different types of schraders. This has nothing to do with canister shocks because the schrader then would be in the canister and be compression adjustable. Theres also heat soak benefits to canisters.

So the high dollar shocks can adjust low speed and high speed do you know what or how they adjust?

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Reamer
JVL Im not bashing your stuff so back off the hostility.

I neither said or implied in any way that you were bashing my stuff.
And I have written nothing at all overtly or implying any hostility.

So, don't tell me to "back off the hositilty"...
THAT I read as an attack---since it is groundless.

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I give to shits less how fast these guys were last week.

(Unless they come on here with some in site on what they learned about there suspension and what they would want to make it better.)

The meta-messege was that there is a ratio of expenditure of time, money resource to returns. And sometimes simpler stuff and a heavier foot yield more than fancier stuff and a lighter foot.

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Im here to learn shocks how they work and what to adjust to make them better in different situations. all said in done I may end up with your stuff so chill.

Then lotsa luck. You think anybody here but me and maybe you has ever been inside a shock and changed anything?
Post some piccies of the different pistons with clear views of the oil passages since you have some or have had some...

And I repeat for the second time: don't portray me as needing to chill when I'm completely chill as it is... I don't take to getting scolded when its not appropriate.

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You can add 3/8" spacer to clear your top hat. And they make different types of schraders. This has nothing to do with canister shocks because the schrader then would be in the canister and be compression adjustable. Theres also heat soak benefits to canisters.

Of course there's heat soak but really any time there is MORE ooil the only change is the time up to temp. More area means more radiating of heat, but all that is true but how important is it?

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So the high dollar shocks can adjust low speed and high speed do you know what or how they adjust?

No, they're more expensive and out of reach of anybody i know so there's no point wasting time studying something that doesn't pay back BIG advantages..
0.5 or 1% improvements is not what 99.9% of people in North American rally need.
FULLY utilising what they have is far more important 25% engine volume , 30% torque increases, 50% more braking those are more the types of improvement that seem worthy of time and effort.

So, where are the photos of the piston heads?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.