NoCoast Grant Hughes Elite Moderator Location: Whitefish, MT Join Date: 01/11/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 6,818 Rally Car: BMW |
Jardevall, Utecht, and Lane haven't convinced you? I mean, there's more flaw to Utecht's Mustangs in the theoretical rally world than about any other car out there, yet it survived a ton of rallies, was always reliable, and was always fast. I'm still waiting to be convinced that most people interested in getting into rally actually possess the amount of commitment that being involved requires. I think that's the reason why VW's are popular and successful is the VW fanatics actually possess that drive. |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Mega Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
Well there aren't many really well prepared cars of either configuration really and there are a few "pretty good' spec VWs which go pretty good when they go, but.... BUT! there are those chronic problems in VWs for which the solutions seem only "just barely adequate" and thats at the VERY MODEST power the bulk of current 2wd cars are doing. The rear beam is one area of chronic problems and the gearbox/diff/CV/hub is another---and we're talking reliability at X cost. And reliabilty at what? 150 ish HP.. Imagine what problems there would be with a 220-230 bhp VW engine... Now nobody is building their VWs to 220 or 230 so the old rule "In a land of blind men, a one eyed man is King" applies. So "be competitive" is code words for "have a fair chance at winning", right? How "competitive" do you think you'd be with a good fat powerband 230 BHP---run thru a decent gearset and a 4.56 or 4.6 axle? You do real good--except when something pukes.... How'd you think that would work out with that much more poop? Reliably put down to the ground? Josh I've only driven FWD and a reasonably relaible one---although I did break 5-6 ring gears over the years (but we did play hundreds and hundreds of miles of pounding between evens), and since my car was light (2020 lbs) I didn't need to go tooooooooo crazy. But we have ample evidence that its not if the car is FWD or RWD that is decisive, its to a large degree the spec: engine output in ft/lbs or BHP, gearset and final drive to multiply the torque. So it ultimately seems to boil down to what will it cost for making a good relaible 215-235 BHP--send it thru a decent box that won't break----and finish it off with a diff that is affordable and a final drive more ideal for realistically 105-110 mph. And that would be just competitive, it would be a HUGE advantage.. And we've seen here that it would be FAR FAR cheaper to make that power with a strong 2.3 Lima or Volvo Redblock or even a Duratec mated to a Borg Warner T5---even with a real close ratio gearset---and a strong 8" axle. And if its 1/3 or 1/5 cheaper, then you're thousands and thousands ahead which can be put toward time in car on events--- And THAT will make you competitive... I don't know how that can be debated..... (presumping a person learns to drive) (and I'm an optimist, so i believe people can lear---and retain that they have a chance to reinforce what they learned and incorporate it. given enough seat time) John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
wvonkessler Wilson von Kessler Ultra Moderator Location: Lookout Mountain, GA Join Date: 02/28/2006 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 1,127 Rally Car: Colts are in Finland; now '87 325i, '89 325i |
Josh:
We'll let you borrow the BMW for an event to make you a believer. Wilson
|
Pete Pete Remner Mega Moderator Location: Cleveland, Ohio Join Date: 01/11/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 2,022 |
Dear god no. Don't do it. Audis keel over bad enough as it is before you go and start making them even more noodle-floppy in the suspension. Suspension doesn't work when it's on the bumpstops. |
heymagic Banned Elite Moderator Location: La la land Join Date: 01/25/2006 Age: Fossilized Posts: 3,740 Rally Car: Not a Volvo |
|
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Mega Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
But there you have the problem, extrmely limited sample size and they way guys you me Sean and Nate Tennis, Mike Whitman ALL of those guys: all did one or the other and many did ONE CAR (which is a good thing in many ways). I noticed you slyly left off the only guy who really did good in both: Jardevall. Carl kicked everybody's asses pretty good way back in a fugly 99 "Wag-goon-back" termite look-a-like Saab. That thing had; "a cam", 5.15 final drive and a plate diff, and "I think we milled the head 1.5mm or 2" And he went WAY WAY better in the damn 740 K-car look-a-like Volvo turbo (which was hilariously mild---had what looked like a normal Xratty turbo, some all alloy intercooler, a SF 4 speed box, an SF diff and 4.67, later 4.56 final drive) He routinely---as long as he had tires---beat all but the Vermont Sportscar Blue Subarats. None of our friends did that in their warmed over Golves. And aside from the lousy ass links in that rear axle which failed a couple of times---it was a paragon of build it, rally it, wash it, rally it wash it, rally it wash it.................. Again none of our friends in their Golves can say that... And I betcha a whole nickle that none of the guys you mentioned have ever driven a decent coordinated build rwd car--so its impossible to say which is better.. it comes down to the COST of making it better, especially STRONGER... John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
aj_johnson A.J. Johnson Mod Moderator Location: Pendleton OR Join Date: 01/07/2011 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 1,381 Rally Car: 88 Audi 80 |
I didn't find it a major amount more noodle-y. would you instead recommend adding a rear bar? I mean for a 0$ spent option, I had more fun 
|
Josh Wimpey Josh Wimpey Godlike Moderator Location: VA Join Date: 12/27/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 649 Rally Car: Sneak the Golf |
Let me know when they start running US rally in those rwd machines again....They were and probably still are very fast guys in fast cars but, I really think they would be fast in just about anything. I should have been more clear, I wasn't hating on rwd setups, my intention was to point out that there has been no convincing evidence that drive layout matters one way or the other. Additionally, John keeps on claiming that his formula for rwd is simple, strong, and powerful enough. But, he fails to aknowledge that building a "barely warmed over fwd prodcuction car" with all its terrible gearing and bendy axles is far far easier and less time consuming than building a rwd car with custom motor, tranny, diff, and suspension mounts and linkages cobbled together from various manufacturers spanning decades of production models. This is why things like Golves, Civics, and Focusi, are popular---it may be more expensive to get a diff and R&P for the fwd car than a Suprattyolvimmer by a factor of 5, but it is EASY and PROVEN to work 'well enough' and requires zero fabrication skill or equipment. To most people, simple does not mean buying a volvo, fabricating custom rear suspension links and welding new channels and mounting points in the unibody, mating XX motor to YY Trans with adapter Z and making custom motor & trans mounts in the process, and mating Differential & rear axle assembly VV to said parts. To most people, simple means buying an R&P & diff, paying someone to install them in your stock transmission, bolting on some boingers, and going out to rally. How many of these Suprattyolvimmers have been fabricated/completed in the past 4-5 years? How many of these Suprattyolvimmers have competed in the past 4-5 years? How many of these Suprattyolvimmers have won stages in the past 4-5 years? |
phlat65 Sean Medcroft Mega Moderator Location: Edmonds, Washington Join Date: 02/12/2009 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 1,802 Rally Car: Building a Merkur |
Mine was a simple Merkur build. I chose to use a BMW rear diff because I had used one in my street car, and for me it was easy. Everything else in the car was stock, or changed for ease of service or cost.
Motor, stock. Turbo, stock. Transmission, Stock. front and rear suspension started out stock, other than the JVAB shocks/struts. No added links or boxes, or arms. I changed to a Volvo radiator and Intercooloer because they are cheap. You could leave the brakes stock if you wanted. I ran with a stock booster and master for the first 4 rallies. At Olympus this year, on wreck creek stage, ACP did a 4:33, Henderson did a 4:34, Burress did a 4:39. and we did a 4:49. That was my 5th rally. That car was easy to build, and easy to drive. I know I can be competitive in a Merkur with more seat time. I only state this because the Merkur is EASY to build, cheap to operate, and dead reliable. Contrary to your statement. I have no doubt that many FWD cars are easy to build, but for a club guy, way more fun can be had, and alot less time working on it, in a Merkurvolvocorollarwd thing. |
Josh Wimpey Josh Wimpey Godlike Moderator Location: VA Join Date: 12/27/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 649 Rally Car: Sneak the Golf |
Sorry Sean (and not to pick on your speed) but a 2.5 to 4 second per mile difference in stage times is not competitive. At 2.5 seconds per mile over 100 stage miles, that is over 4 minutes difference (4 seconds per mile is nearly 7 minutes difference over 100 stage miles)
Then, why does it seem that you are one of the only persons who has built and campaigned one?
'Fun' is too amorphous to argue about. Prep time to stage miles is an interesting concept but probably can not be measured with any accuracy. I suspect that, as a simple approximation, the amount of prep between events required is proportional to the speed at which the car is driven and to the roughness of the terrain being traversed (i.e. drive faster and hit stuff harder requires more maintenance). As a second approximation, prep required between events is directly proportional to the amount of prep that DID NOT get done but should have before the previous event (i.e. If you put off checking all the suspension bolts and motor mounts for tightness and damage, you will likely have to do more work after the next event---especially if this causes a failure that causes additional damage downstream or a crash). |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Mega Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
. Again? Why? if their previous results are discounted, why would they running again make any more impression? And if you can ignore the 10s of thousands of hours of gravel rally we can watch on the Screen here from countries where there are twice the cars in just F-cup junior than we have in max entries in any US event, then again, what's the point?
Agreed. Didn't suggest otherwise.
It doesn't, especially at medium to higher speeds, the spec of the car does though for how long and hard a guy can go fast without DNFs from chronic problems.
It is and simple cost/benefit analysis proves that easily.
Easier INITIALLY to reach SS1 of first event.
Cost the same for fwd or rwd. so cancles out... But a BIG 2,3 will cost LESS to build to an advantageous level and less to keep going than a smaller, higher strung motor "squeezed tighter".. And we aren't just talking about getting to SS1 on first event.. Clever boys notice that I push 2,3 turbo motors---and stress "You need not touch the motor"...
Optional. A lotta guys have run stock trannies. but some guys find a $200 car that inexplicably came with an autotragic box so, or a questionaly stock box with a billion miles with low oil or whatever, and for them the effort of finding the T5 box is minimal, (although finding the exact T5 with the really good ratios might take a few more minutes searching and cost a few more bucks---but we're still talking low hundreds not multiple thousands.
Shirley you're not suggesting that is easy or cheaper for any FWD car???
Easy at a few dollars each. Available anywhere for $12-14 for the link, 14 for rod ends... And then you have easy, cheap replacements for $12-14
You say that like its a bad thing...? At least we CAN upgrade--up-SIZE easily to something we know will live for thousands and thousands of miles of clumsy goof ups for dollars, not thousands---or simple like the chronic VW failures--no know cure. - Oh because they easy to bolt on some suspenders and get to SS1?
a factor of 5 or 8 or compare a gearkit, upwards of 10 and that's for the least desirable 020 box. As long as there's nobody doing anything but warmed over versions. I asked how do you think those cars would work if the bar was upped to what it was 15 years ago when there were plenty of 200-215 bhp cars in Group 2 with good gear sets and final drive (that weighed 400 lbs less) ?
Obviously people who want to pound on modern production based cars sure as hell better buckle down and develop so rudimentary fab sills and get some basic equipment soon or later...
You're speaking now for a lot of people---what's that called?
I said you can buy them anywhere. me, Colman, Speedway, Jegs, Summit, Joe Doakes Family Circle track Emporium of Lower Bumfuckia Hollar, West Bumfawk, Egypt.
Come on, mang, EVERYBODY needs to do some welding, whats zapping in a skinny box and towers once? If its so much effort how have millions of American roundy round guys done their chassi work, and 35+ years of everybody else in the rest of the rally world done just that?
XX? Something wrong with a nice stout Ford 2.3 or Volvo 2.3?
Are you seriously suggesting than using 4 screws to bolt a bellhousing onto a gearbox is some technical feat???
They don't HAVE TO, they can CHOOOSE TO for a do it once and forget it forever deal.. Especially if they want to keep on doing event after event after event... They don't HAVE TO, they can CHOOOSE TO for a do it once and forget it forever deal.. Especially if they want to keep on doing event after event after event...
are you seriously suggesting that walking into any junk yard in the Continent and walking up to a Toyota pick up and buying an axle---which may already have a 4.56 or a 4.3 in it, is NOT EASY?
And finding a rear axle guy to install a diff into an existing housing is HARDER than splitting a VW box, and welding a few tabs is HARD? You're arguing about "just getting to SS! and cruising" when you earlier we alluding to, and I asked and you didn't reply: "I take it competitive is code word for have a chance of winning?" Clearly you're talking short term (and be damned if its slow, bends the shit out of everything, the gearbox and motor mounts fall out, the guy DNFs 50% of the time...) And I'm talking LONG TERM. A clash of cultcha, cultcha i tell ya. John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
phlat65 Sean Medcroft Mega Moderator Location: Edmonds, Washington Join Date: 02/12/2009 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 1,802 Rally Car: Building a Merkur |
|
Josh Wimpey Josh Wimpey Godlike Moderator Location: VA Join Date: 12/27/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 649 Rally Car: Sneak the Golf |
John, those cars and those competitors simply don’t exist here. I really really wish they did, but they don’t and no matter what you convince someone to build, it will not bring those cars and competitors to the US.
Can you point to solid evidence to show that RWD cars suffer fewer DNFs than FWD cars?
No, it doesn’t. The cost benefit analysis is very complex for any individual and neither of us should pretend to know the outcome.
YES! Instead of being an incomplete neglected project in the barn…
I meant motor mounts not custom motor which is of course more or less the same cost regardless of which 4cyl you build.
Same here---meant custom trans mounts to adapt your XX trans to your whatever shell.
Same here—mounts to connect you whosit diff to your whatsit shell
Easy for who? The guy who wants to rally or the aspiring engineer or fabricator who wants to diddle in the garage?
Thems not the prices I see custom rear suspension linkages selling for… You might be able to fab them for that price but first you gots to do or at least understand the engineering and the fabrication yourself. Again--- Easy for who? The guy who wants to rally or the aspiring engineer or fabricator who wants to diddle in the garage?
YES!!!!! Exactly! And, as been shown, a fancy gearkit is not needed to be competitive. The US rally scene would have to change pretty dramatically before a warmed over production car couldn’t finish in the money even at a MaxAttack! event.
That is all fine and dandy, but the bar is NOT that high. It might be in a few years (or it might not be) but surely you could understand why someone would rather get on stage quickly in something really easy and ‘good enough’ rather than build something that _might_ be faster but requires more effort.
There are plenty of people who rally and/or want to rally that have no fab skills and are not interested in acquiring them or have fab skills but don’t want to spend the time to build everything from scratch. Hell, some people won’t even wash their own windows but still want to (and do) come rally.
Its called the same thing you are doing.
See above ^^
Yes. It doesn’t matter that it may ultimately be very easy to do. What matters is the perception of how difficult it might be. Yes, trying to bolt a T5 trans to a Volvo is something that plenty of people would shy away from because they perceive that it may not work or that it may be difficult---especially when the alternative is paying someone to put an R&P & Diff in a Sentra and bolting on some JVABs <--They KNOW exactly how easy that is. Like it or not, the unknown is what scares people off. The information shared on this site will help a few overcome that fear. But, there is still a real risk that someone takes on with a project like you have suggested. It might not work, it might cost a lot more than planned, it might drive like a street Volvo when you are done…. Adding a diff, R&P and boingers to your Sentra, Golf, Civic whatever is pretty much a known quantity as there are readily available measuring sticks out there.
YES!! Any idiot can buy a part at the junkyard. Knowing which one to get, what to do with it, how to mount it, how to adapt it, how to reinforce it, etc are hard.
Any idiot can drop off their trans with a diff & R&P and pick it up the next day in exchange for a handful of cash. Installing a diff into an exiting axle housing is arguably much easier—but, as noted above you can’t just go to the junkyard, pick up an axle and put in you diff & R&P, bolt on some boingers and go. You have to fabricate, adapt, and engineer shit…
No, as I stated above, I think that making it to SS1 with some warmed over fwd econobox with decent boingers, R&P and a diff is all that is needed --equipment wise-- to finish toward the front of the pack. |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Mega Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
Quote
And are you suggesting that because those cars are on gravel roads over there driven by normal folks in another place, that we can learn nothing from them and transfer no knowledge? Cause i though just watching any of the thousands of vids is lessons enough.. But I readily confess I don't understand how the average US rally-perv thinks. John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
Josh Wimpey Josh Wimpey Godlike Moderator Location: VA Join Date: 12/27/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 649 Rally Car: Sneak the Golf |
That is not what I am suggesting at all. Can a Jamaican ice hockey team learn anything from the thousands of Canadian hockey players? Sure. Do they have to implement everything the top Canadian's do and use in order to win the Jamaican hockey cup? Probably not... |
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
Rally Anarchy © 2014 Corvus Digital –
Part of the AutoShrine Network –
Problems? Send an email to the Webmaster