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Josh Wimpey

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john vanlandingham

And are you suggesting that because those cars are on gravel roads over there driven by normal folks in another place, that we can learn nothing from them and transfer no knowledge?

That is not what I am suggesting at all.

Can a Jamaican ice hockey team learn anything from the thousands of Canadian hockey players? Sure.

Do they have to implement everything the top Canadian's do and use in order to win the Jamaican hockey cup? Probably not...

So are you happy being the Jamaican (the country of my Mom's birth) hockey team? And you imply that that is a reasonal TARGET to aspire to?

And what do you think the Trenchtown Wailers would do to the competition if they didn't just watch a buncha vids then go played in the alley with a 1x 6 and a soup can "cause that's all it takes to "be compettive" with the locals, but if they moved to Ontario and learned what even city leagues do for practice, conditioning and tactics....

Do you 'spose that they may be just a bit more competitive than if they just did the minimum?

If you aim low, don't be surprised if that's what you hit.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Holy crap you guys are going to use up the whole internet.

Just to clarify..I never cleverly left out Jardevall. He wasn't around when I rallied and I've only seen him drive AWD Mitsus. I haven't a clue as to his 2wd capabilities, nor is it germane to the thread actually.

Lou Beck in a very stock Focus pretty well kicked Adams Toyota to the curb at Mt.Hood. Charles Buren pretty much kicked all the 2wd to the curb at several events. Mark Qvale consistantly beat much more powerful RWD cars in his Dodge (even the non-turbod one) . Coast to coast since the late 80s we've seen fast FWD results on mild spec cars. There is an ass for every saddle.

To be competitive in the US for the last 25 years or more required nothing more than a good driver, moderate skills and ANY platform that didn't break down regularly. RWD is not needed to be competitve and that is just the way it is. Can they be made stronger for cheaper..yup. Will that automatically quarantee a win..nope.

If RWD was all the shit then Audi, Peugot, Subaru, Mitsubishi, Citroen, Lancia would have pursued that platform. It isn't and they didn't. I think a mediocre driver will show better results in a good FWD than a RWD. I can't remember the last event I was at that a RWD impressed me. Burrus at DooWops, Wimpey at Idaho...pretty F'n impressive. Since I was a pretty fast guy in a RWD that totally sucked in FWD , I have an even greater appreciation for their skills...and I hate VWs with a passion. My old fire suit still has the bunny with a red slash thru it patch....

So going by results nowadays then everyone should build an AWD car....

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john vanlandingham
Cause i though just watching any of the thousands of vids is lessons enough...

And here am I am at a road race event with 600 entries trying to convince some of these 'money bags" that rally is the way to go and more fun, and trying to bring some people over. But if they see this type of comments I fear I'll be mocked in the paddock!

C'mon John you cant win them all. Josh is right. Plus Group F is no where from a simple build, a 1.6L toyota motor 4age making 230-250hp like the GrF corollas costs about 20k to build here in the states, I would imagine similar figures there. The dog boxes are all around 5k euro, dampers anywhere between 5-15k... plus all the chassis developments and custom suspension geometries. All a far cry from simple.

You want to look into that type of performance and development in club racing look into the GTL GT3 GT3 GT1, some STO, STU, S2000, DSR, CSR.... eeeeesh, shall I go on to maybe pro level? In these club level classes you will see machines that will put the best rally car in Finland crying at a corner squirting blood out of the ass when it comes to engineering and development. PERIOD.

The point is you're NEVER going to get rally in the US to the same level as finlandia because the motorsports culture is different.

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Cosworth

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john vanlandingham
Cause i though just watching any of the thousands of vids is lessons enough...

And here am I am at a road race event with 600 entries trying to convince some of these 'money bags" that rally is the way to go and more fun, and trying to bring some people over. But if they see this type of comments I fear I'll be mocked in the paddock!.

If they saw the videos--which you should be showing them, ---then they'd shit the bed.

And if they didn't then they simply have no idea what they're looking at.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

So, to preface what I have to say, I've never been on stage, But I am building, and have built cars for other events, so this is an outsiders point of view...

So you are saying the issue with the xr/volvo frankenstien is fear of the unknown keeping people from getting to events, and stalling during the build process.

Is this any differerent then the built fwd cars that (ive noticed) are for sale more often then others and need tons of proper work to last to the end of any event?

Engineering to get parts to fit will stop you just as badly as burnout over replacing ANOTHER (part x). This, The latter, I have experience with as I swung the 3rd engine in my Auto X MGB. I decided that autocross didnt have enough fun time or satisfacton for the work time.

To me this is a lack of commitment or lack of true interest in the end result once the hard work sets in. That was my issue, and thats the same issue with the deer-in-headlights volv/ker 'wannabe engineer' and Volks/ivic parts monkey. If it isnt in you, its not in you, I think...

It would be cool to see a list of cars currently produced within the last five years that 10 years from now would amount to a durable, affordable and competitive stage car. now break the list up from RWD to FWD. I think there would be twice as many FWD cars to fit all three.
FWD:
VW GTI
FORD FOCUS/FIESTA
HONDA CIVIC
MINI COOPER
FIAT 500 PUNTO
MITSU LANCER

RWD:
FORD MUSTANG
BMW _____
NISSAN _____

Just goes to show how much i know about cars currently on the market and or who offers RWD. The debate can go on and on and be quoted then quoted and rebutted then quoted again. Imagine being a green horn and looking to RA for a bit of help only to find out you "should" start with a car that was relevant 20 years ago, and build it to be good enough for today. Maybe a bit more thought on development on modern cars is needed. Feel free to add to my list.

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BJosephD
It would be cool to see a list of cars currently produced within the last five years that 10 years from now would amount to a durable, affordable and competitive stage car. now break the list up from RWD to FWD. I think there would be twice as many FWD cars to fit all three.
FWD:
VW GTI
FORD FOCUS/FIESTA
HONDA CIVIC
MINI COOPER
FIAT 500 PUNTO
MITSU LANCER

RWD:
FORD MUSTANG
BMW _____
NISSAN _____

Just goes to show how much i know about cars currently on the market and or who offers RWD. The debate can go on and on and be quoted then quoted and rebutted then quoted again. Imagine being a green horn and looking to RA for a bit of help only to find out you "should" start with a car that was relevant 20 years ago, and build it to be good enough for today. Maybe a bit more thought on development on modern cars is needed. Feel free to add to my list.

Interesting, the reason I and many "had" to start with a 20 (33) year old car is that it was $300! And its WAY better than anything you can get now FOR WHAT I WANT TO GET OUT OF RALLY. Carry on, and fly that Audi flag.

And what about us that just want to have fun???

Isn't that what truly what keeps you turning wrenches, spending money, and entering events?

I have actually started to see a lot more new RWD builds at rallies.

Oly alone this year saw
3 corrollas
1 celica
1 m3
1 325
1 Merkur
1 rx7

NEFR had similar numbers and at least two brand new RWD builds.

For sure that is what I am focused on so that is what I notice. Not at all saying that there weren't FWD cars there, just that some of us are dusting of those projects.

I also have to say Josh that your argument would be easier to take if you weren't doing much of the same stuff to your current build(x engine in to Y car, custom mounts, etc.), that you are arguing against. I understand it isn't a starter car and isn't apples to apples. Just weakens your stance a bit.

There are really 2 cars that I know of that are really thought out and well built in the US. Lurchs Mazda and Olsons Capri. Both are way beyond the normal 'clubman' build. All the rest are pretty close to their grocery getter counterparts. That is what club rally exists of in the states. People don't build to the pointy edge, don't have a bazillion rallies a year to practice on. While Volvos and their ilk are certainly more popular in Europe they aren't, weren't and never will be here. Then we even have differences between east coast and west coast US car popularity, with the Asian cars being more popular here and the Euro trash being more popular there.

I seriously find it funny that JV is arguing with Josh, who is a current top competitor, very frickin fast, very knowledgable of todays US field and the effort needed to run upfront.

The statement or question was do you need a RWD to be competitive and the answer , based on results in the US for the last 15-20 years has to be "No you don't". Has nothing to do with which car is a theoretical better build.

I went RWD because I thought it would be more fun. I also wanted a car where a "stock engine" could be used so I wouldn't be pulled into the same temptations I've fallen prey to with the Evo.

I think I could be faster in a FWD car assuming similar build specs (I won't comment on if FWD or RWD would cost more to build since I don't have experience building a FWD), especially on snow, but that's just one race per year. Since nobody is rallying here in the US to make money, smiles/$ is what its all about. I have no doubt in my mind that the BMW is more fun to hoon around in than a FWD car.

Dave

Actually the audi isn't so bad price wise as an open light car. $5-700 for a clean car with no rust. 5 banger is dead nuts reliable. Lots of bolt in motor and trans options for future growth (4banger, deisel, 5cyl turbo, vr6 etc etc). No custom motor or trans mounts. Just need time. Even the a4's can be had for 15-1800 from time to time.

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slidewayswrx
I also have to say Josh that your argument would be easier to take if you weren't doing much of the same stuff to your current build(x engine in to Y car, custom mounts, etc.), that you are arguing against. I understand it isn't a starter car and isn't apples to apples. Just weakens your stance a bit.

Well, who knows if that car will ever be finished and if it will be competitive. The car we have run since 2004 is very much a warmed over production car---a bit hotter now than it was in 2007 but still very much a warmed over production car (now with slightly more powahz and bigger boingers).

The car we have been building since 2009 started out as just building a spare shell because we had it and thought it would be fun to improve on the older car and have a backup shell in case we wrecked it too badly. 3 years later, it has taken on a life of its own and just a fun project to diddle with.

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DaveK
I went RWD because I thought it would be more fun. I also wanted a car where a "stock engine" could be used so I wouldn't be pulled into the same temptations I've fallen prey to with the Evo.

I think I could be faster in a FWD car assuming similar build specs (I won't comment on if FWD or RWD would cost more to build since I don't have experience building a FWD), especially on snow, but that's just one race per year. Since nobody is rallying here in the US to make money, smiles/$ is what its all about. I have no doubt in my mind that the BMW is more fun to hoon around in than a FWD car.

Dave

Exactly !! I too would have more fun in a RWD and I've driven all 3 platforms. A competitive drive can easily be any of the platforms . Nobody is dominating US rally in an old Volvo or Xr. People are dominating in FWDs however, so to be competitve that is sufficient ..even though not JV's ideal on paper build.

Rally in the US needs to be fun, some people have fun chasing the ditch with the ass of the car, some people have fun winning. Whatever the poison I don't think anyone need apologize for their preferences or justify to the rest of us why they want to drive whatever the hell they drive. I'm all for trying to help, explaining the weak or strong points of a choice, beyond that its up to them. Anything we can to to get a guy on stage, whether in a Yugo or a Volvo needs to be more important than having them run what we think is the answer.

Waddya mean Audi's don't turn in well (Please ignore 1:01 - 1:09 )

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