Nice looking build, I dig it. Cage looks well done, though I would have done a few things different (like attaching the rear stays directly to the shock towers instead of the floor right next to them.) My biggest concern though is the tubing appears to be ERW. Legal for Targa maybe but it will never fly for stage rally. But maybe that's not the objective.

I went with ERW tubing for a few reasons. The wall thickness is .130" mucho thicker than moly and it was no cost. It is also heavier per linear foot. I don’t see an issue with welded tube. Now from everything I have seen and had to deal with on this build even for Targa NF is that my class is curb weight -200lbs. I cannot find anything except for the preproduction TR8 sales brochure with a curb weight which once I ditch the AC, PS, Interior bits, headlamp motors, extra wiring, bumpers covers, etc I would be about 2,200lbs.......hello ballasts or a heavier cage to compensate! I would get killed finding an organization to run in and a factory V8 does not help. Im sorry to be this way but SCCA and others are anti-TR8 even when new! I went with the diagonals going to the frame and not the rear shock towers. This car needs the cage tied into the frame more so than the towers with the exception of the front which the V8 would twist the nose up. I do plan on running a gusset plate from the diagonal to the shock tower and the biggest issue more important than tying it in is reinforcing the top shock mount hole that will push out if left alone when the shock is fully compressed. Building one of these cars requires a ton of research and also getting the guys that build/built and ran them from all over the world to give up their secrets. Biggest help was from Australia from several Targa Tasmania & Adelaide Rally entries. They all have no issues except the fact it is not done! The original works cars even Buffums were very crudely build with no side bars, curved rear bars, & crazy bolted flanged connections that I would be afraid of ANY off road excursion. So far the only Rally TR7/8s here in the US are OOM512R a factory works car and mine. Buffums car is in France and well other destroyed or packed up in boxes.

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Mike

"If it is not broken then don't fix it, but make it faster!"

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wedgeworks
once I ditch the PS,

It was established in back to back tests way back in the 70s that identical cars and World championship level drivers were a bit over 1 second per km quicker.. Less fatigue, less problems with kickback, which with deep dish wheels and high scrub radius you are going to have.
A PS pump like a typical Saginaw pump weighs 8lbs.
A typical Cam Gears rack with PS is around 4 lbs heavier than a CamGears manual rack...

You pump a lotta iron?

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I went with the diagonals going to the frame and not the rear shock towers. This car needs the cage tied into the frame more so than the towers with the exception of the front which the V8 would twist the nose up.

What frame? The car is a unibody car isn't it?


The tower is designed to deal with loads from the shocks, kinda up and down loading, especially UP loadings, (which the shock slows down, making the mounts stressed) your car would be much happier and live longer and work better and the main hoop would be supported with a better angled tube going to the top of the towers. I'd plate the top and weld a stump of a tube, trimmed off on the rear facing side, and terminate the back stays, the diagonals, and the short little bastids coming up from the lower part of the main hoop all intersecting at or near that stump.

And a serious not, not toolate to correct.
Those gusset you have here and there actually weaken a joint when done on centerline like that and you can demonstrate this to you own satisfaction by placing a larger version of the triangle in the crook of your arm while you have bent your arm 90* at the elbow.
Now, call Mongo in and when you make a fist, let Mongo pull on your fist...

While you waiting in the emergency room for stitches, think how you could immobilise somebody with just durable cardboard and duct tape IF you taped the cardboard on both SIDES of the bent arm so on the car... use 1/2 the gauge, and added strength, not point failure.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

The original works TR7/8 used a quicker ratio in the manual rack and with the power steering pump removed, hoses and the rack it is about 4X heavier than the manual not a problem and its free horse power too. Been there with the PS belt cut off to build up my "Popeye" arms.

Believe it or not the TR7/8 has "frame" rails part of the unibody that do run from the front to the back thru many sub members, so there are no need for frame connectors like mustangs or camaros.

The little gussets were done per Targa beacuse the taco reinforcing would not be feasible due to the body lines and Im not cutting the roof off. There are some gussets that were added and are not required but the main ones installed past the bend radius on the two front down tubes were per Targa NF. If I went with fixed side windows or pull straps deleting windows cranks and regulators then I would have had to put the diagonal running from the top at the first bend down to the bottom of the front down tube to reinforce the area. The example of bent arm is a good one but instead of pulling or pushing on the arm it would be realistic to put the point load at the outside of the elbow.

Im trying to keep it simple and not reinvent the wheel. Better to have something than nothing at all.

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Mike

"If it is not broken then don't fix it, but make it faster!"

Quote
wedgeworks
I went with ERW tubing for a few reasons. The wall thickness is .130" mucho thicker than moly and it was no cost. It is also heavier per linear foot. I don’t see an issue with welded tube.

The issue is that ERW is not allowed by any sanctioning body that puts on stage rallies. Perhaps that's not a concern to you and you never intend to do stage rallies but you kind of painted yourself into a corner if you ever decide to do one in the future. You'll never be able to get a logbook with that cage. Also, the tensile strength, etc of ERW is lower than DOM and it bends easier, that's why it's not allowed.

Don't get me wrong, I really love this build and can't wait to see it finished, just pointing some things out.

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wedgeworks

The little gussets were done per Targa beacuse the taco reinforcing would not be feasible due to the body lines and Im not cutting the roof off.

This makes me concerned that the cage is not welded all the way around at the top. Hopefully it is. I've done TR7 rollcages before. There are ways of dropping the cage down before final welding the base plates to access welding everything on top (without cutting the roof off). If this was done then certainly welding in taco gussets all the way around would not have been a problem. I noticed in the photos the floor plates appear to be completely welded already while the top of the cage is still tacked...
Other than that the cage looks well done and it's probably fine for Targa. Just remember, you can crash just as bad on Targa as you can on a regular stage rally.

Don't take this the wrong way, we can be kind of picky on safety stuff around here.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2012 02:29AM by Doivi Clarkinen.

I'm with Dave. I wanna see a TR8 rallycar too...Mr. Clark is worth listening to, I bet pretty much every car in the PNW has his rollcage or at least his cage updates in it...

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Jay Woodward
Snohomish, WA
'90 Mazdog Frankenprotege
Chronologically, 46...

This is the great thing about building a car.... it's yours and you can do whatever you want with it. The downside is depending on those choices, it can really limit what sandbox you can play with your toy in.

The V8 is plenty small enough to come play in RA/NASA/CARS no problem there.

The cage welds are more than sufficient. They are welded 360-degrees and the cage was dropped down so the top welds can be completed. I made sure since I am a certified weld inspector for 17 years that the weld joint prep, welding and final assembly was done correctly and are of quality. The shop has built cages for SCCA, Grand Am, NASA, NHRA, IHRA and others. It is properly built to Targa specfications. The intent on the build was to find an event to build the car to that would still make it streetable and also go to shows with and toss around. I found even in the Targa event I am a black sheep but have been more than welcomed for the build. This is one of those ride it hard and put it away wet projects. If I survive the first day.....or even the car then that would be awesome! If not well they do serve beer in Newfoundland right? The car would be reshelled or left as a crumpled up hulk in the garage with a been there done that lable.

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Mike

"If it is not broken then don't fix it, but make it faster!"

Quote
Doivi Clarkinen
The issue is that ERW is not allowed by any sanctioning body that puts on stage rallies.

Or any road racing or hillclimb sanctioning body for that matter....in fact the only place ERW is still legal is some entry level classes of NASCAR racing.

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Opel is a 4-letter word...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10498579@N07/sets/

"I noticed in the photos the floor plates appear to be completely welded already while the top of the cage is still tacked... "

Bingo.

I look at every weld, all the way around, with a mirror and flashlight when I log book a car.

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Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

You gonna run Targa in a nimble v8 thing. Anyone besides me jealous as SHIT?

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Jay Woodward
Snohomish, WA
'90 Mazdog Frankenprotege
Chronologically, 46...

The top side of the tube was welded and not the sides or bottom prior to the base getting welded down to the plates. I did look at the top sides and areas that were not in direct view with inspection mirrors. I do this everyday for work....inspect welds from handrailing to nuclear piping.

Maybe with all the reaction to the cage portion of this build I should have just used one of these SCCA/NASA/COM road racing copmpliant cages?




I guess its dammed if you do and dammed if you dont type world.

BTW-Jay thanks!

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Mike

"If it is not broken then don't fix it, but make it faster!"

Hey man AWESOME build!!
I think you are in a place where people truely appreciate your obvious talent... but where we would all like to see it at least capable of doing a rally on dirt some day. So we can live vicariously through you at the very least. Certainly that may not be your goal, but this is RALLY anarchy.
Do whatever makes you happy... obviously you know how to build things right... but I'm with the rest. Build a cage that the rally sanctioning bodies will accept (CARS, NASA, RA). All kinds of reasons. Safer cage, more versatile toy, and maybe even some improved resale value if you ever decide to sell it.

My goal is to keep the car and hit the track for open sessions. I want to do the Targa NF and well thats it. Someday my ultimate goal is to buy and run an original "Works" TR7V8 in Historic but I am sure it would be laughed out of the US since it was built to 1978 standards and having the V8 does not help. Im sure if I dove into NASA/CARS/RA rules & regs the TR8 would be penalized through the nuts like it was for SCCA road rcaing & prorally to make the build worthless. If all goes well with this car I do have a pristine 1978 body shell as a backup so then MAYBE I will build a proper car with a stroked 5.0 liter rover V8and a T5 with some disgusting cage/suspension tie-ins.

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Mike

"If it is not broken then don't fix it, but make it faster!"