Rear suspensions - what and why?

Back on the original question: I think the strut preference comes down to the fact that suspension position has relatively little correlation to cornering force in a rally car. You could be going around a corner while a series of bumps is stroking your suspension through 8 inches of exciting camber change. Or you could be going straight and experiencing that same 8 inches and that same exciting camber change.

The relatively low camber change of a strut is a nice little anchor of stable geometry in a crazy bouncy world.

And yes, you can make wishbones with little or no camber change, but there's no room in a production body for the long upper control arm that requires.

-Dave

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john vanlandingham

OMG.. , no OMFG

Once again supposed, self described "ex spurts" write things that opens cans-o-worms. Why do they does this shit? Has nobody involved in this "rule" ever looked inside modern shit?


Illegal, they aren't solid, they have holes and those holes have some nylon/delrin/whatever but it isn't bronze.


These are not "solid" either. They are steel with a copper flash, then a lead/tin/indium overlay...

Hell it might be only JVAB Soooper Bitchin Suspenders are legal since I use SAE660 solid bronze bushings...


We could pick apart the working guidance of the shaft....

but its lake, I have no patience.

John,

Roller bearing struts were all the rage in the WRC for a couple of years. The goal was to reduce the heat build up in the strut. Here is a picture of the proflex solution. Notice the part on the right hand side. This took the place of the solid bearing surfaces that you showed in your post. I remember an interview with Manfred Stohl where we was complaining about how expensive they were since he was running a privateer Pugeot team at the time.

Yeah yeah whaddevar.
Of course i knew about that nonsense, everybody did cause they and the airheads who spend Other People's Money like meth heads were all raging about how reducing stiction was going to mean everybody would instantly be so fast---regardless of any lack of skill--- that they would be on a first name basis with God.

I thought it was the typical extremist "yes its true but the resulst are so insignificant as to be immeasurable---much less noticeable" type of bullshitting which so plagues amateurs who need to pretend they are really professionals.

Be that is it may, the wording about SOLID means somebody clever can protest a lot of people and win every event and the bog Title all on protests about bushings.

A new high has been reached...

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Not being familiar with how RA handles things, is the protesting bullshit all that common? To me at least it's pretty clear what the *intent* is, even if the phrasing may be kinda stupid and could be interpreted to have most off the shelf shite illegal. I mean, I know if it were SCCA roadracing, it would eventually lead to all sorts of meetings and shit and a paragraph long definition of "solid" somewhere in the rulebook if they tried to introduce something like that rule, and probably a shitload of development to circumvent the exact wording by people who didn't give a damn before it was illegal, but that's SCCA roadracing.

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john vanlandingham
Yeah yeah whaddevar.
Of course i knew about that nonsense, everybody did cause they and the airheads who spend Other People's Money like meth heads were all raging about how reducing stiction was going to mean everybody would instantly be so fast---regardless of any lack of skill--- that they would be on a first name basis with God.

I thought it was the typical extremist "yes its true but the resulst are so insignificant as to be immeasurable---much less noticeable" type of bullshitting which so plagues amateurs who need to pretend they are really professionals.

Be that is it may, the wording about SOLID means somebody clever can protest a lot of people and win every event and the bog Title all on protests about bushings.

A new high has been reached...

I think the highlighted section is really the key here. I think the rule makers were doing the higher budget open class guys a favor and trying to keep costs somewhat under control.

Also your protest idea would likely not hold water as it hinges on your definition of solid, which is see as being a single piece. Where I could easily see the stewards treating what you pictured as a composite solid piece that does not move so legal.

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Andrew_Frick

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john vanlandingham
Yeah yeah whaddevar.
Of course i knew about that nonsense, everybody did cause they and the airheads who spend Other People's Money like meth heads were all raging about how reducing stiction was going to mean everybody would instantly be so fast---regardless of any lack of skill--- that they would be on a first name basis with God.

I thought it was the typical extremist "yes its true but the resulst are so insignificant as to be immeasurable---much less noticeable" type of bullshitting which so plagues amateurs who need to pretend they are really professionals.

Be that is it may, the wording about SOLID means somebody clever can protest a lot of people and win every event and the bog Title all on protests about bushings.

A new high has been reached...

I think the highlighted section is really the key here. I think the rule makers were doing the higher budget open class guys a favor and trying to keep costs somewhat under control.

Also your protest idea would likely not hold water as it hinges on your definition of solid, which is see as being a single piece. Where I could easily see the stewards treating what you pictured as a composite solid piece that does not move so legal.

Yeah I agree but its in the end more pointless rules. Vermont/Sub-a-rat USA doesn't give a shit about costs and it is silly to have rules about things so insignificant in terms of performance, just opens one more thing to obsess on.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

My thoughts on your og question, what works best for rally is what ever is tought enough to survive, and second what doesnt hop around too much. Then there is the issue of what is available, as changing to a different rear suspension system is an insane amount of work. Obviously the most realistic option is beef up what the car came with. Twisty rear beams for golves, mysterious benderoo multilink struts in Subies, the stuff under the rear of a Focus will make you face-palm... I'm biased, but I really like the live axle with coilovers in the volvo.

What makes that so much more expensive? Or why couldn't you use needle bearings? (dirt and dust and grime, I'm guessing for the latter)

I guess I don't understand how the bearing itself is what makes them too expensive, and not something like all the internals of the damper itself.

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

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Dazed_Driver

I guess I don't understand how the bearing itself is what makes them too expensive, and not something like all the internals of the damper itself.

I thinks its because they have a patent on it ?...So you have to buy it from them if you want to use this design. Its probably the reason why it was banned to. (but we still can use them here)
From the guys i know that use those...they are worth every penny...and more. absolutely bomb proof.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/2012 10:39PM by Dobmaster.

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Dobmaster

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Dazed_Driver

I guess I don't understand how the bearing itself is what makes them too expensive, and not something like all the internals of the damper itself.

I thinks its because they have a patent on it ?...So you have to buy it from them if you want to use this design. Its probably the reason why it was banned to. (but we still can use them here)
From the guys i know that use those...they are worth every penny...and more. absolutely bomb proof.

Can't patent a linerar roller bearing anybody can open the catalogue laying right over --------------> there and simply order.

And not saying what whoever told you wasn't what they told you but---come on, somebody pisses away that much money tpo go amatuer rally, of course they're going to rave about it..

But I seriously doubt anybody is sooooooosensitive ON FAWKIN GRAVEL to notice..

Its not like there is that much stiction in other bearings and relatively supple suspension..

I heard on the other hand that they were a royal pain in the ass because minute amounts of ----are you ready???---



DIRT would gum and jam up the tiny less-than-BB sizes rollers and then you have a bunch of point contact as a bushing, and tubes would become kind of knurled or fluted.

Of course that's if there's any dirt around...

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Wait... I thought dirt was good for bearings! Lubricates them and increases longevity doesnt it?

---

"The more I learn, the more I realize I don't know and have so much more to learn." - Claude Rouelle, Optimum G lecture June, 2011

I agree, that they did not invented anything new in therms of ingeneering...but its true for lots of patents. Now what i said was only supposition on the why and why...im probably far from the real answer...but there is chances that this is was it is.

I agree with you that a guy that spend XXXXXXXXXXXXX$$$$$$$$$$$$$ on a product...will almost NEVER tell you that it sucks, i have seen this way to many times LOL. What a good friend of mine told me is that when he got a set of those, they were set for winter rally (and i think he won that national rally?) wile getting ready for the next event, he did some suspention setup testing, and ended keeping the super soft winter setup for gravel for the rest of the season. And won a few events. Usualy a soft setup like that on gravel would kill the suspension quite fast (over eat, flex, etc ect) but with those...he was able to keep it and have a car that was extremely easy to control and was plowing true evrything at maximum speed.

The way i see it...the bearings are not there for stiction, but to prevent the shaft from flexing.

We all have or own theories on suspension set up, im not telling you that its the absolute best and the only way, im just saying what i have being able to witness.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/26/2012 01:56PM by Dobmaster.

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Andrew_Frick

I see ''PAT1018872'' in the picture of those bearings.
I have pushed the limites of my googlgle search capacity cant find anyting but concrete for that patent # ? will have to call up anonimous to hack it down....or take the next fligth to the Netherlands...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/27/2012 01:02AM by Dobmaster.

Whatever..
no concern of anybody with any senses.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

fo what its worth, I lube up the bronze bearings in my JVAB 50mm's ever two or three rallies and they work great.