T5 Wizard Help Needed

Well a few of you around here seem to know your way around a T5 box so question for you folk.

How does one get the cluster gears out of a NON world class t5? Plenty of info on the world class stuff, nothing for people with no class like myself (haha... I make funny ). I got some idea's but I don't want to try them and then break shit.

Can't help you much as of yet since I apparently picked up a world class one and just started learning the ins and outs.

If there is so many good sites with info on a world class t5 then why would you go the other way?

Daily driver?

For some apps the NWC had better ratios available, plus a lot of the difference is the WC used fancier synchronizers that allowed them to use Dexron instead of gear oil for a smidge better fuel economy.

I don't quite get the fascination of WC over NWC.

---

Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.

It also comes down to strength of the gearbox as well. Torque rating of a WC is 300lb-ft, where the NWC is 200 or 240 lb-ft.

Erik, is response to the cluster gear: I'm assuming it's the same. The boxes are very similar with bearings and shaft sizes being the main differences. What exactly are you having issues with in the removal process?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/14/2014 12:02PM by Robert Culbertson.

Quote
Clayto
Can't help you much as of yet since I apparently picked up a world class one and just started learning the ins and outs.

If there is so many good sites with info on a world class t5 then why would you go the other way?

Daily driver?

Cheap locally with the gear ratios I wanted. AKA 2.95 first.

Quote
Pete
For some apps the NWC had better ratios available, plus a lot of the difference is the WC used fancier synchronizers that allowed them to use Dexron instead of gear oil for a smidge better fuel economy.

I don't quite get the fascination of WC over NWC.

I'd say its over hyped unless you are wanting an aftermarket gear set. There are bearing differences that make the WC a bit stronger. Those syncros make it more costly to build.
However all the aftermarket gearsets are WC that i've seen. If your building something nuts or want closer ratios wc is the one you want.

Also I think I figured out the cluster removal. I will know tuesday when I attempt to press it out.

Edit: Robert I will throw a photo up in a minute to show what Im after.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/14/2014 12:09PM by Eric Ewert.

Quote
Pete
I don't quite get the fascination of WC over NWC.

Unless I'm mistaken - which happens from time to time - John has figured out that the WC T5 is better than the NWC. What more do you need to know?

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Keith, if you have something to offer in the way of genuine help I am all ears. Otherwise take that shit and keep it away from this and all my threads for that matter. I'm trying to get a question answered/ learn something. I have no use or time for comments lacking any sort of intelligence.

So Robert here is what im after. First pic shows the bearing im thinking of pressing. Second photo is basically asking "can I press this out this way?" ...the way my finger is pointing that is.

Quote
Robert Culbertson
It also comes down to strength of the gearbox as well. Torque rating of a WC is 300lb-ft, where the NWC is 200 or 240 lb-ft.

Erik, is response to the cluster gear: I'm assuming it's the same. The boxes are very similar with bearings and shaft sizes being the main differences. What exactly are you having issues with in the removal process?

Sorry to break your heart Robert, but you need to spend some time reading...The torque rating of the various T5s varies and the variation is directly related to ---since they all share the same shaft c-c----the input shaft to cluster gear reduction...

More reduction like the shit 4 cylinder boxes, means the box sees more torque..
Less reduction means the box sees less torque...

So basically an inverse relationship in terms of strength and first gear ratio....T5 with 4.08 first are doo doo...

Just looking at Ford T5s--GMs follow the same pattern:
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T5 Identification Chart
B/W Id

Source

Application

Torque Max (lb/ft)

Gear Ratios

Speedo Drive
Gear

Input Shaft
length

Input Shaft
Pilot Dia (in)

Notes
1352- Year Model Engine Max Torque 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th R
114 Factory 85-86 T-Bird 2.3 T 235 4.03 2.37 1.49 1.00 0.81 3.76 6 7.41 0.59
115 Motorsport 79-83 Mustang 5.0 305 2.95 1.94 1.34 1.00 0.63 2.76 6 7.18 0.668 a
116 Factory 85-86 SVO 2.3 T 250 3.50 2.14 1.39 1.00 0.78 3.39 6 7.41 0.59
126 Factory 85 Mustang 5.0 265 3.35 1.93 1.29 1.00 0.68 3.15 7 7.18 0.668
141 Factory 86 Mustang 5.0 265 3.35 1.93 1.29 1.00 0.68 3.15 7 7.18 0.668
154 Factory 87 Mustang 2.3 240 3.97 2.34 1.46 1.00 0.85 3.70 7 7.41 0.59
155 Factory 87 T-Bird 2.3 T 240 3.97 2.34 1.46 1.00 0.79 3.70 6 7.41 0.59
162 Factory 87-88 Mustang 2.3 240 3.97 2.34 1.46 1.00 0.79 3.70 7 7.41 0.59
165 Factory 86 Mustang 5.0 265 3.35 1.93 1.29 1.00 0.68 3.15 7 7.18 0.668
169 Factory 86.5-89 Mustang 5.0 265 3.35 1.93 1.29 1.00 0.68 3.15 7 7.18 0.668
194 Factory 89-90 Mustang 2.3 240 3.97 2.34 1.46 1.00 0.79 3.70 7 7.41 0.59
199 Factory 90-91 Mustang 5.0 300 3.35 1.99 1.33 1.00 0.68 3.15 8 7.18 0.668 b
200 Motorsport 79-93 Mustang 5.0 305 2.95 1.94 1.34 1.00 0.63 2.76 7 7.18 0.668 a
202 Aftermarket 79-93 Mustang 5.0 305 2.95 1.94 1.34 1.00 0.80 2.76 7 7.18 0.668 c
204 Service 85-89 Mustang 5.0 300 3.35 1.99 1.33 1.00 0.68 3.15 7 7.18 0.668
207 Factory 91 Mustang 2.3 240 3.97 2.34 1.46 1.00 0.79 3.70 7 7.41 0.59
208 Factory 92-93 Mustang 5.0 300 3.35 1.99 1.33 1.00 0.68 3.15 8 7.18 0.668 d
209 Factory 92-93 Mustang 2.3 240 3.97 2.34 1.46 1.00 0.79 3.70 7 7.41 0.59
218 Factory 93 Mustang Cobra 310 3.35 1.99 1.33 1.00 0.68 3.15 8 7.18 0.668 e
219 Factory 94 Mustang 5.0 300 3.35 1.99 1.33 1.00 0.68 3.15 8 7.85 0.668
220 Factory 94 Mustang 3.8 265 3.35 1.93 1.29 1.00 0.73 3.15 7 7.85 0.668
225 Aftermarket 79-93 Mustang 5.0 325 2.95 1.94 1.34 1.00 0.80 2.76 7 7.18 0.668 b,c,d
227 Motorsport 79-93 Mustang 5.0 325 2.95 1.94 1.34 1.00 0.63 2.76 7 7.18 0.668 b,c,d,f
236 Factory 94 1/2 Mustang 3.8 265 3.35 1.93 1.29 1.00 0.73 3.15 7 7.85 0.668
238 Factory 94-97 Mustang 3.8 265 3.35 1.93 1.29 1.00 0.73 3.15 8 7.85 0.668
239 Aftermarket 93 Mustang Cobra 310 3.35 1.99 1.33 1.00 0.68 3.15 8 7.18 0.68 c,e
242 Factory 94-95 Mustang Cobra 5.0 310 3.35 1.99 1.33 1.00 0.68 3.15 8 7.85 0.668 e
246 Factory 94-95 Mustang 5.0 300 3.35 1.99 1.33 1.00 0.68 3.15 8 7.85 0.668
249 Motorsport 79-93 Mustang 5.0 330 2.95 1.94 1.34 1.00 0.63 2.76 7 7.18 0.668 e,g
251 Aftermarket 79-93 Mustang 5.0 330 2.95 1.94 1.34 1.00 0.63 2.76 7 7.18 0.668 c,e
253 Aftermarket 94-95 Mustang Cobra 5.0 310 3.35 1.99 1.33 1.00 0.68 3.15 8 7.85 0.668 c,e

Input Shaft = 1-1/16 inch/10 spline
Ouput Shaft = 28 Splines

Notes:
a) Motorsport M-7003-A
b) Improved Steel Alloy
c) Aftermarket
d) Carbon fiber 3/4 blocker rings
e) Cobra tapered roller pocket bearing
f) Motorsport M-7003-X
g) Motorsport M-7003-Z

Note the footnote b...improved alloy..

Note the 305 ft/lbs in the highlighted 5.0 box from '79 thru '83....
That's before WC was invented..

Pays to read a little before saying silly things...jus sayin'

If you dig further the main differences are caged roller bearings as an assembly on cluster gears vs loose needles---and then the "stupor bitchin " fiber coatedID on the synchro rings...for "Improved shift quality" which they evidently did---till they died...and early units flaked rapidly..
I think people can struggle by with bronze IDs and maybe use some gross grease to hold the needles even if it takes a few minutes more---again considering that an owner may do this once or twice so big deal taking a bit of time to stick the needles in the case..
Borg Warner of course would be thrilled to save a few minutes time on assembly when they make 1000s a day
So a slight mod that meakes their job isier is touted as a major design revolution..

Meh!


The point in the end is we want the RATIOS---something poo poo-ed as not important by many----and WC or NWC both have plenty of the overcapacity we want for reliability....

Details, Robert...you have to know the details.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
Eric Ewert
Keith, if you have something to offer in the way of genuine help I am all ears. Otherwise take that shit and keep it away from this and all my threads for that matter. I'm trying to get a question answered/ learn something. I have no use or time for comments lacking any sort of intelligence.



So Robert here is what im after. First pic shows the bearing im thinking of pressing. Second photo is basically asking "can I press this out this way?" ...the way my finger is pointing that is.

Sec. 4-18 Removal of T5 NWC Countershaft Gear
a) push countershaft gear (105) rearward to force bearing (101) and spacer (102) out of transmission case (106)
b) tilt the front of the countershaft gear (105) up and remove from top of transmission case (106)


Hope dis helps more that the idle chatter.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/14/2014 01:37PM by john vanlandingham.

Sec. 4-18 Removal of T5 NWC Countershaft Gear
a) push countershaft gear (105) rearward to force bearing (101) and spacer (102) out of transmission case (106)
b) tilt the front of the countershaft gear (105) up and remove from top of transmission case (106)

So just to confirm I am correct to press on the bearing I have posted a pic of in the first photo? I looked at the exploded view and thats what I can conclude.

Also john that sounds like you took that passage from a rebuild manual correct? I haven't bothered to buy one and probably should.

Quote
Eric Ewert
Keith, if you have something to offer in the way of genuine help I am all ears. Otherwise take that shit and keep it away from this and all my threads for that matter.

Sheesh...
Try and point out John's expertise and efforts researching things and this is what I get?

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

If you were actually trying to make a point that john has quality knowledge on these transmissions (which I seriously doubt you were) then you may want to re-evaluate how you say it. I won't speak for others but as far as i'm concerned those were clearly shots fired at him that were both inaccurate and unjustified.

Quote
Eric Ewert
If you were actually trying to make a point that john has quality knowledge on these transmissions (which I seriously doubt you were) then you may want to re-evaluate how you say it. I won't speak for others but as far as i'm concerned those were clearly shots fired at him that were both inaccurate and unjustified.

I suggest you take a step back and re-evaluate things you read.
Yes, I was actually saying that John's knowledge and opinion here comes from study and experience.
No, I wasn't taking a shot at him (and am at a bit of a loss to figure out how complimenting someone's knowledge and experience can be seen as a shot)
Stop being paranoid, particularly on behalf of another, and take what is being said at face value.
Stop forcing drama into places where it doesn't exist. There's enough bullshit in the sport hobby these days.
This is one of the areas that only a fool would question John's knowledge and experience. I ain't no fool.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

John, I know how gears work. I understand torque ratings. If you look at the fancy list you posted, there are a lot of WC transmissions with 300lb-ft torque ratings. The 4cyl NWC ones are noticeably lower... Around 250. I think that's what I wrote earlier.

Erik, follow the manual.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/14/2014 07:38PM by Robert Culbertson.

Quote
Robert Culbertson
John, I know how gears work. I understand torque ratings. If you look at the fancy list you posted, there are a lot of WC transmissions with 300lb-ft torque ratings. The 4cyl NWC ones are noticeably lower... Around 250. I think that's what I wrote earlier.

Erik, follow the manual.

I am so happy you know how gears work. Such a shame you don't know how explanations work..
You said:

Quote

Torque rating of a WC is 300lb-ft,

Not "some WC have xxx rating and SOME have xxx rating"

And you said , "where the NWC is 200 or 240 lb-ft. "

Not "some POS NWC with stupid fucked up granny low 1st gears have only 235 at the lowest and some have 300"

We've covered all this a dozen times over....

The guy was just asking for the one step in a operation, not musings or stomach rumblings or what you believe and mistakenly think you know, just a simple question about one step...

And...he got a good clear answer--verbatim copied out from the T5 manual which just happened to be on that table over there---->

Why would you say "follow the manual" when its obvious he doesn't have a manual (derp! derp! that's why he's asking derp! derp!), and wasn't it clear the steps I wrote were in fact straight from the manual?

I don't get it.

Obviously

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.