Introduction / 4 seater cage question

Why spend all your time and effort trying to build the Vista when you have off the shelf solutions and support for other similarly priced vehicles?

---

"Talk about drugs. Driving a car like that, going that fast, it’s like all the drugs at once." - Tommy Byrne

"Now, Pinky, if by any chance you are captured during this mission, remember you are Gunther Heindriksen from Appenzell. You moved to Grindelwald to drive the cog train to Murren. Can you repeat that?" - The Brain

I love the idea of this car, and don't listen to others, build what's fun for you. We talked about doing one of these years ago, 4 race seats, double main hoop cage, what a blast for a recce car!! Do be careful with the cage placement in relationship to heads without helmets please, tubing doesn't give way like plastic and sheet metal does. I can't wait to see more pics too.

-Jon

Here's the basic thing; sustainability.

From the looks of it you could make a Colt Vista competitive enough with time and effort. People may disagree but fawk, it's North America, not like car build standards for this place are necessarily that high compared to Europe so let's just take it as given and move on. So it ends up basically a Galant or DSM underneath with some custom fabbed bits and everything is good.

Well, then something breaks. Or you encounter trees and write it off. Whatever. Now you need to make sure you find the same combination of cobbled together parts to fix it, or you're staring at another huge chunk of time to duplicate everything you had to do to get it close enough to a DSM to have useful parts fit.

It's not that it's all impossible, it's just another hurdle (or several) and most people have too many hurdles to get a normal rally car with available parts that already fit on stage and to keep it on stage over the years. And I betcha it's frustrating as all hell for people who've been around to watch newcomers give up before they get on stage especially when they could have, with a similar amount of work in a platform that is more suited.

Two cents, etc.

Quote
wvonkessler
Why spend all your time and effort trying to build the Vista when you have off the shelf solutions and support for other similarly priced vehicles?

Most of this time and effort would have gone into a dsm or galant as well really. Just a bit more work to fit the new struts. I wanted to experiment with a tunable front prolift/antidive solution and this suspension is actually far more easily modified for such than a dsm or galant. It's lighter and I believe with a full cage and a bit of bracing (once again something you would do for the other cars as well) should be equally as stiff... if not stiffer. In reponse to the pictures too, I'm not near my car atm, hence the time to continue talking on here. I'm not saying it's not been a good learning experience but if I was with my car I would be working on it not writing on this forum. Totally not talking smack about anyone else with that, I'm just sort of driven/obsessed when i get into a project, also the reason I'm still thinking, planning. talking about it while I'm away. For the same reason I can't show you the specific areas I would argue are much better braced than a galant even. It was made from the factory for offroad and towing, neither of which the galant was. I'm not sure wether to take Johns hooning accolades as an endorsement but the giant tight center viscous on this car I believe is also already much more well suited to rally than any of the other standard dsm,galant, 3000gt awd systems. It's design was also I think for simplicity and robustness, both of which also carry over better. It really does power oversteer, I can only imagine with the new rear clutch lsd and some boost how fun i will be.

Quote
jrally
I love the idea of this car, and don't listen to others, build what's fun for you. We talked about doing one of these years ago, 4 race seats, double main hoop cage, what a blast for a recce car!! Do be careful with the cage placement in relationship to heads without helmets please, tubing doesn't give way like plastic and sheet metal does. I can't wait to see more pics too.

-Jon

Thanks! It's not that I'm not listening, sometimes you can learn allot from criticism, I'm confident enough I will still finish the project regardless.

I liked the 4 seater idea but a proper cage can't have bent rear back stays and there's just no way there could be people back there with those bars right next to their heads so I think I've given up on that idea. Also like I said I won't have new pics for a little while, but I will update when I get back to it.

Quote
mekilljoydammit
Here's the basic thing; sustainability.

It's not that it's all impossible, it's just another hurdle (or several) and most people have too many hurdles to get a normal rally car with available parts that already fit on stage and to keep it on stage over the years. And I betcha it's frustrating as all hell for people who've been around to watch newcomers give up before they get on stage especially when they could have, with a similar amount of work in a platform that is more suited.

Two cents, etc.

That is entirely legitimate, I do worry a little about that but I've got experience with other projects unrelated to rally. like I said mostly drag stuff, also experience and resources,parts and friends/ local community related to dsms, most of which applies to my car.

As far the parts go, in relative comparison I would rather have stock upgrades from other cars, I can get 3000 gt brake parts or new hubs/bearings very easily vs pure race custom stuff. I mean sure there are upgrades for the galant but where? How much? How easily replaced are those? Most of my modifications have taken sustainability into account. The transission is rare as shit and they had to source the syncros from all over the country and I still don't have a new 1st, its all discontinued. This is also why I am already building a dsm awd auto, it is only gaining more and more aftermarket support and popularity now, and it's strong as all hell. A guy name Kevin Kwiatkowski owner operater of kiggly racing has gone low 8's on this transmission front wheel drive.





Jeff Bush has gone 7's awd on this transmission





I realize this is not drag racing but the strength and resources are there is my point.


Steering rack is newer evo, Its just the mounting that is custom. Same with rear diff, valve springs and oil squirters for that matter. That's all just bolt in so no real customization there.

As far as fabricated lower control arm replacement, I've grossly oversized the tube and rod ends so it should be pretty hard to mess them up vs the stock parts but even if I were to it's just some dom tube to replace it. That actually seems much easier and quicker than a fancy $ race part or even sourcing galant vr4/awd dsm parts, they are out there but getting rarer by the day.

As far as axles there are still lots of fwd 3000 gts around salvage yards to source axles from, you can even get them at autzone and the like in a pinch. Even at that they are also grossly oversized and honestly should not ever give me any issues. The rear axles could be a bit more troublesome but no more so than any other higher power awd car. Most will have custom rear axles anyways, and the 3000gt rears are awesome. I would have tried to integrate the entire larger rear differential but I didn't like the lsd options for it. Parts replacement is a legitimate concern and I have put thought into that.

Quote
tdrrally
looking at things as they are the vista basically has the galant vr4s front suspension and the xr4ti,e30,510,ect rear suspension with some air cooled mixed in

with basically the the same powertrain as the galant,dsm

i did see someone asking for serious help with a car
bad jokes are not a good way to promote the sport but a great way to kill it!!!

i'm a visual type of person and as such i'm really looking forward to seeing more pix!

Thanks again, I will put up more pictures when I can.

Quote
tdrrally
folks on here keep talking about serious or competitive rally cars and not a fun car to build learn and play car. i don't recall him talking about building a wrc vista or some such thing.

the thought of and turbo vista powersliding around a hairpin gives me the goosebumps, while i laugh my ass off!

YES! You get it!

Doooood we don't drive "off road". Basic fundamental error. We drive on roads.

You have yet to put one wheel to gravel road .

But you " wanted to experiment with a tunable front prolift/antidive solution "

This is bullshit of the most extreme sort... Again a basic fundamental error in thinking.


EVERYTHING you have so far written is all 100% bullshit. Your posting spring rates take off only god knows where---are you going to say you tested them to check spring rates---I don't think so, they were found on some stupid web site with near certainty posted by somebody else who really has not a clue ----but the 3 rates are totally irrelevant. Meaningless....
But assuming for just a brief second's reflection that they were correct.

The ONLY rational conclusion is that they were right for the combination of compromises the designer of the 3 cars decided on and the weight and above all the available travel of each fitment.....

None of which has anything to do with either grass-o-cross or (gasp!) driving fast on a gravel road...

And you made no mention of the weight of the front of the three cars, no mention of the available travel, the intended usage, the damping rates..

Thus the info itself in isolation is doo doo
All discussions following from a departure point of dooo-dooo are naturally going to be dooo-dooo..
"the fruit of the tree of doo-dooo is also thus dooo-doo. As it was in the beginning, so shall it ever be doo-doo"

You say you're not trying to convince anybopdy---and well aside from a few people that obviously don't give a shit if you wank off for years and never do an event, you aren't convincing abnybody.

But for not trying to you sure are trying...

Anders Green, a very nice guy up in North Carolina who began oprganising this upcoming event Sand Blast some years ago loves statistics, and uses them as an aide or a "reality check"----wisely know how untrustworthy subjective "reasoning" is..
He has a shocking figure:
43% of all the people who entered a rally in the last 10-12 years do a "career" total of 3 events and disappear forever.
27% do 1 event.
And are gone...

Now most aren't bending over backwards to try and design some complete POS morphodite mini-van into a rallyworthy car, they're just buying Blue Subarus and even then its 3 events and good bye.

For a person who has yet to even have done 1 yard in an event to say " I wanted to experiment with a tunable front prolift/antidive solution" means that you are either an escapee from a mental institution---is Chatohoochee is the state mental hospital (I lived in Flar-duh twice as a wee kid and that was "the boogie man" the teachers and principles would throw around when trying to scare me into obedience), or....or I really don't know what.
I saw a piccie of some guy on some job site with your name.. It might be you and if so you don't look like a deranged murderer or that you drive a van like this


But regarding cars and what you think you are "planning" and thinking about




There's a few really useful phrases that are useful cause they're good---and need no endless discussion;
Don't re-invent the wheel
Horses for courses
First things first
And one of my guiding lights before I left home to spend years around the world in motorsports:

A good plan today, violently executed,
is better than a perfect plan tomorrow.

To review: grass-o-cross anything including the POS minivan is perfectly fine. As long as it starts, runs turns and there are some brakes.

Real gravel...Google Image search world wide, but especially the big gravel countries who there are sustained programs for decades and look at what 75% are driving...
A wise man would think: dayum must be some good reasons they are doing those kinda cars...

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote

Quote
tdrrally
folks on here keep talking about serious or competitive rally cars and not a fun car to build learn and play car. i don't recall him talking about building a wrc vista or some such thing.

the thought of and turbo vista powersliding around a hairpin gives me the goosebumps, while i laugh my ass off!

Quote

YES! You get it!

No he doesn't.
I will illustrate his error. He attempts to contrast "competitive and serious" verus "fun car to build and a play car"

It is a false dichotomy..

Nothing saying that a nice simple car, which might actually do the job well, is not fun..

Some might suggest something that works well is MORE fun, even if it is simpler and the driver has to do more.



And the seriousness, that doesn't even enter the discussion.

And further it is irrelevant...FUN is the entire thing..

And fucking around with hodge podge junk shit that is frustrating seems to be LESS fun than driving a nice simple car that works..

If you make nice results, fine, like whatever, but I don't think high results are the central thing.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

If you think those people drag racing have "gone 7s' on the stock POS thing in your mini-van, then perhaps you are insane after all...beyond hope and beyond redemption...

because that is what you are trying to convince us...while you're not trying..

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I don't have time to properly reply atm. I will look up gravel stuff. That's about the only useful thing you just said. Why must I wade through piles of anger to find the information?

The spring rates are from the mitsu factory service manuals, from which I also made a list with damper rates and travel if you want to see it. Specific front rear weights are not easy unless you have the car and scales. The front pro lift thing is proven in fwd drag racing, whitline makes a kit for the wrx. I simply said I just wanted to try it, I was answering why I wanted this car, I want to to experiment and learn. I never said it would have a direct carryover to rally. Stop taking what I say out of context. Same with your statistics on rally participation, I believe it. I've also openly stated in reality this car may be never see a stage, I just wanted to learn about cage regulations. I also openly stated I've never even rally crossed, yet again you are not saying anything I haven't already said myself. Stop being offended by things I never said, I have allot to learn from what you are telling me and you are making it super hard. Is this some pai mei shit?

Quote
timiacobucci
I don't have time to properly reply atm. I will look up gravel stuff. That's about the only useful thing you just said. Why must I wade through piles of anger to find the information?

The spring rates are from the mitsu factory service manuals, from which I also made a list with damper rates and travel if you want to see it. Specific front rear weights are not easy unless you have the car and scales. The front pro lift thing is proven in fwd drag racing, whitline makes a kit for the wrx. I simply said I just wanted to try it, I was answering why I wanted this car, I want to to experiment and learn. I never said it would have a direct carryover to rally. Stop taking what I say out of context. Same with your statistics on rally participation, I believe it. I've also openly stated in reality this car may be never see a stage, I just wanted to learn about cage regulations. I also openly stated I've never even rally crossed, yet again you are not saying anything I haven't already said myself. Stop being offended by things I never said, I have allot to learn from what you are telling me and you are making it super hard. Is this some pai mei shit?

I am not in the least angry...What a bizarre conclusion. Again says that there is Sum Ting Wong
with you reasoning skill when you imagine things..
I just check with my sweet wife and asked--because I am reading alound some of this madness you write---and asked "did i sound in the least even slightly angry?" and she said "No, you sounded sad and confused"..

Not offended either...

After all i have heard similar almost identical way crazy pointless ravings of pseudo-technical bullshit HUNDREDS of times before in the last 45 years...

And i know where it leads.....into the wilderness.

And Pai Mei?





is that some 無厘頭 shit? Mo lei tau in case you don't know.

Ok truth is I'm a big fan of mo lei tau...I admit it!

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

You're wife is alright JVL. That response had me busting up, reminds me of my smart ass wife.

Pai Mei is from Kill Bill, that character is a big part of the 2nd movie, I think you will get my joke if you watch it.





As for why I thought you were mad.

Quote
John Vanlandingham
EVERYTHING you have so far written is all 100% bullshit. Your posting spring rates take off only god knows where-

Caps are usually like yelling. So you are essentially yelling everthing I am saying is bullshit. Including simply quoting specs out of the factory service manual. I don't get why that's bullshit or why you are condemning everything I have said. If there is no anger and you are just sad and confused then just be a little nicer and explain it to me. If i'm making large scale errors in my logic I want to be corrected. Like just simple relative things you know, like give me a specific example why my thinking is so far off. These spring rates/travel/damper are good in this " " range for this " " front end weight for example based on what you've already said. Why just say everything I say is bullshit with so little actual information or guidance?

Obviously I don't know you personally and it seems like every way I try to approach this is still wrong. If your wife read all this maybe ask her advice as to how I am going about this wrong and how I should approach you differently to have a meaningful conversation.

From my side I put allot out there already and try to be real specific and clear and detailed, the more I put out, the more open I am to criticism and question. That's fine because I want to learn what mistakes I am making. Mostly all I've received back is allot of, that's bullshit, that's stupid, this is shit, you're delusional, ect. What am I suppose to do with that? It means nothing to me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/2015 08:29PM by timiacobucci.

If I was an inter-net nerd boy then all caps would be in Intra-web Nerd+boy+ese yelling.. Among normal literate humans it can also be for EMPHASIS....

If I was angry and yelling I would use phrases such as "You fucking idiot!!!" Or "You fucking half-wit!!!!"

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Ok, cool. You like the clip? So is there a bit of this going on or is it my imagination?

Quote
John Vanlandingham
After all i have heard similar almost identical way crazy pointless ravings of pseudo-technical bullshit HUNDREDS of times before in the last 45 years...

Ok, so what parts are psuedo and what is actually technical to focus on? Like what stuff have I said that is pointless and what should I be focusing more on?

Aside from the tech stuff about spring rates and pro lift and geometry comparisons to lancias, how about the actual work I have showed? Is it generally solid? Rebuild stuff, better lsd, better brakes ect? I mean that's the shit that's really gonna get it running, all this other stuff is me having too much time on my hands to think about this rather than actually wrenching. The next focus would be safety and cage stuff to progress to actual stage level. Can we skip over the other shit then and just pretend like it's a mostly a galant? Or if you really want to linger on the differences at least explain a bit more.

You're not getting a lot of help with this project because even though there might be some decent, or upgradable parts, a car is a whole system. And if one part of that system is junk, the entire car ends up being junk.

The question about what is NOT junk has been asked ten thousand times. And the answers have been sussed out into a few standardized plans that tend to work well with minimal custom work, have good longevity, and are competitive.

Outside of those standardized plans, you COULD build a competitive car, but it will most likely be expensive and difficult to maintain or repair. Or more likely, you will end up with a car that is expensive (in time or money) to build, maintain and repair and is STILL not compeititve. And the chances of building an economical or competitive car your first time is close to nill, even if you are following one of the standard plans.

While we enjoy seeing offbeat rally cars, if they are cool, the mini-van you have is not cool (sorry to break it to you). It's outside the realm of easy builds and will likely never be competitive. Therefore it's not being received well, because you've already said you are going down your own path and have rejected the anwsers we've already spent time finding. Once you tell people they are wrong, they tend to ignore other requests for help.

---

Jason McDaniel

I've been reading old threads here again more, I see that both John and you Jason have already put a whole lot of useful information out there. I don't mean to come off disrespectfully and honestly I just need to keep reading older stuff more and keep lurking. I think this all got so derailed. I understand if you have already explained the stuff I am asking to have explained to me lots of times in the past how that would be frustrating. I'm not asking to be spoon fed, just point me to the pertinent info and I will study.

I don't plan on this being competitive BECAUSE it would be my first rally car. The purpose of this car to me is to try many things out and learn and experience. I never said it had to be competitive, like John has pointed out most people that start in rally don't get very far, to that end I'm not shooting for the sky on my first car. I'm just trying to actually figure out what it would take to run it period. This is not the only form of racing i would like to try with this car, this just happens to be the most stringent (rightfully so) for safety and cage requirements. If I can learn what is needed for this sport it should carry over well to other types of racing safety wise.

I know how to build this car so this is what I'm building. I believe I have adapted enough of the chassis to use many existing parts and make it highly serviceable, everyone seems to be overlooking that. It's functionally not going to be any different to service than a galant would be. I am doing this just to be able to keep it into the future and repair it, independently of whether it ever has anything to do with rally racing. I do believe the work I've put in has direct carry over to rally though.

Mainly I started this thread looking for cage advice and again I have found much more information looking through other older threads. I actually have experience in 3d computer modeling for graphics stuff, from another lifetime it seems. I plan to make a revised version of the cage I am contemplating at some point to show you here and see what mistakes I've made or revisions that should be made. I really do appreciate constructive criticism. Much of what I have received here is less than constructive.

I can respect not liking to be told you are wrong, I simply was looking for a bit more clarification. It's not a matter of being told you are wrong, it's a matter of not liking having your judgment questioned. I apologize, I've gotten shit for doing that my whole life but I have also learned so much I would never change it now.

The only reason I got derailed arguing the point of the vista chassis was not to prove it's a wrc level car, that's CLEARLY not my objective in this. I simply saw it as an opportunity to learn what makes a good rally chassis. I have not learned allot. Not trying to revive this argument but here was my final conclusion based on the whole dimensional argument,

This is an evo 9

Dimensions
Wheelbase 2,625 mm (103.3 in)
Length 4,490 mm (176.8 in)
Width 1,770 mm (69.7 in)
Height 1,450 mm (57.1 in)
Curb weight 1,310–1,490 kg (2,888–3,285 lb)

This is a vista

Dimensions
Wheelbase 2,625 mm (103.3 in)
AWD: 2,629 mm (103.5 in)
Length 4,490 mm (176.8 in)
Width 1,645 mm (64.8 in)
Height 1,525 mm (60.0 in)
FWD: 1,519 mm (59.8 in)
AWD: 1,585 mm (62.4 in)
Curb weight 1,133kg

What I have learned from this argument is the main reason the vista is a bad rally chassis is that people think it's ugly.

Jason I'm sorry you don't like my van, maybe someday I can get an old Saab and join the cool kids. I say that sarcastically but in honesty if I get the principles down on the vista I really have no idea what I would choose to build for a serious rally car yet. I am obviously partial to Mitsubishi though and also Ford.