Diesel...rally car? talk me out of it...?

so I am starting to look at my golf III with greater intent, while thinking about the new power plant one of my sponsors suggested going bio-diesel.

this is good for me on a number of levels, sponsor, obviously wants us in the alternative fuel area for their own product and service promotion.

doing so would dump us into group five, however I am thinking the power plant and transmissions would be a hell of a lot cheaper than a NA application. Obviously we would be making power upgrades on a nearly stock motor, driving down the cost of a fresh motor.

I imagine I will still be spending a shit ton of money on the transmission, however, not spending 5-10K on the motor will allow for better suspenders, and really cool transmission bits too.

talk me out of this...?

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-Tom
DemonRallyTeam | Fine Tuning | CTS Turbo & RP Turbos | RalleyTuned | JRM | Meister Autowerks
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Do it! It would be fun to see you kick ass on everybody with a diesel. You can get crap loads of torque out of those TDI's. You will probably be needing those really cool transmission bits. And find out where Derek was getting his axles from...

I believe CARS has a production class that diesels fit into if you're planning on running a few Canadian events, RA might as well as I believe they were allowed in P-class by SCCA.

Or you could get silly and make it 4 wheel drive like Peter Reilly's Golf and run open.

Cheers, Ted

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Pure mathematics is the enemy of every truly creative man -- Sir Alec

I want absolutely nothing to do with a P-based car, I am not a perfect driver, I will bend and break everything on a P-car.

I am going to talk with our partner and see what kind of power we can make with the setup, then go from there....if it won't be a competitive G5 car I won't even try. obviously drivetrain and torque will be a big consideration

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-Tom
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Check out http://www.rallyvw.com/
Jon Hamilton from Ohio has run a mk4 tdi in g5. He hasnt done any rallies lately I dont think, last time I saw him was sno drift 05. But his car always attracted a lot of attention. He'd be good to talk to about it though.

I'm familiar with John's car to a certain extent...I think he ran a couple in 2006, but haven't seen him this season...

All I know is that we are going to need to make a ton of power....then try to figure out how to put the power down...

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-Tom
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Why do you say it'll be 5 to 10k for an engine?
Or "not spending 5-10k" ?

Turbo diesels CAN make truckloads of torque, but you really want to spend the time, money, searching, and DNFing that developing one will certainly take?

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Turbo diesels CAN make truckloads of torque, but
> you really want to spend the time, money,
> searching, and DNFing that developing one will
> certainly take?
>
>

Developement's been done. VW TDI's have been successfully rallied in Europe for years:
http://homepage.virgin.net/shalco.com/golf_tdi.htm
http://www.streetracersonline.com/articles/golfvrcr/

Doivi Clarkinen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> john vanlandingham Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > > Turbo diesels CAN make truckloads of
> torque, but
> > you really want to spend the time, money,
> > searching, and DNFing that developing one
> will
> > certainly take?
> >
> >
>
> Developement's been done. VW TDI's have been
> successfully rallied in Europe for years:

Oh yeah, then its simple. No Problems, just bolt on stuff.
Seems just a bit worrying here:
The engine itself is obviously worthy of closer inspection. It is based on the 110bhp, 170 lb.ft, 1896cc, 79.5mm bore by 95.5 mm stroke production TDi engine as fitted to the Polo, Golf, Bora, Passat and Sharan, and the block, head and crank for the rallying units are taken off the production line. But how do you get more performance out of a diesel? NASCAR-style grip is needed to use the dished steering wheel

Whereas increasing engine revolutions is part of the process of extracting more power from a petrol-fuelled engine, the slowness of the diesel engine combustion process means that high rpm is not an option. In fact the TDi is governed to a maximum of 5000rpm. Thus, it was the engine's breathing system that came in for most attention, with enlarged ports, a larger Garrett turbo, a modified injection pump able to deliver more fuel and enlarged injector nozzles. The cam and valves were also blueprinted, a lightened flywheel with an AP Racing cerametallic clutch was attached and the engine mountings were uprated. The car also boasts a water spray-cooled intercooler, akin to a WRCar, sited in front of the water radiator, and also a small fuel cooler, located at just above the water rad. There is also an oil/water heat exchanger neatly plumbed in and located at right angles to the water rad just to the left front of the engine.

Needless to say , the control of the fuel injection is critical. and the Bosch engine management system looks after that side, also controlling turbo boost. The result is a power output of just over 200bhp at 4100rpm, and torque of 258Ib.ft at 3550rpm. Compare those figures with the Golf Kit Car petrol engine, which turns out somewhere near 280bhp at 8500rpm and 181 lb.ft at 6500rpm, and you can see that the TDi has about 80bhp less peak power, but 77 lb.ft more peak torque. It also has over 220 lb.ft of torque ready and available from as low as 2000rpm up to 3900rpm, so in normal use it can always deliver more torque than the petrol fuelled engine. It is the very delivery of this engine performance that required specific chassis development. Oh, and fuel consumption in this spec is an amazingly frugal 15mpg, approximately.''

Sounds simple, everythings the same as gas motors but different.
>
>

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

My concern for this is drivetrain parts.
C/V's will require the expensive solution that was finally the end of broken C/V joints for Derek. Eric Burmeister supplied many good bits for Derek's car.
The transmission will be needing help along with the nasty limited slip.

This could be much fun.

My car is overpowered and a lot of fun when I don't break it.

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JohnLane

Overkill is consistently more fun

Tom,

Talk to Jon now. He was at Pikes Peak this year. Had a bad turbo supplier and went thru 4 turbos in 4 days of practice/qualifying, but I believe he's over 4ooft/lbs now and he did get it together to make it to the summit.

JV is timid cuz he's not up for a science project and he's right to submit to working with what works and is proven.

However, when the dollerz start adding up to go a new direction, you have to weigh the possibilities. TDI is VERY supported right now. They created a class for them at PP this year, cuz they brought the dough. Dakar, LeMans, you name it. TDI is the "green" that VW is hanging it's hat on right now (just have to photoshop out all that black smoke coming out the back).

I wouldn't take it on as a science project on your own (listen to me, boy!), but if they are offering hand in hand development and engineering OR proven rally drivetrain systems already running elsewhere, it could be the start of a good relationship. If it's a flaky dealer and his cousin who works out in the oil change bay, I'd pass.

Gimme a call if I can help.

Good luck.

Lurch

edit...oh yeah...all the fwd tranny suppliers (xtrac, etc.) have had to uprate their boxes to take the tork of diesel rally/touring cars.

And these guys will make you axles that will work. You'll rebuild them often, because they make the races softer for our stuff so they don't break, but they work for 400hp fwd rally cars. www.rcvperformance.com Tell 'em I sent ya.

---

Lurch
Eric Burmeister
The west coast...of Michigan



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2007 12:27AM by Lurch.

In a perfect world, where I have gobs n gobs of mulah to throw around, I'd own me one of them touregs n pump the hell outta that there diesel. Fun for all!!!

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Kirk Coughlin
Woodbury, MN and River Falls, WI

Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.

Rally Tiguan???

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3590518

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-Jason

Fit it with BIG brakes!!

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JohnLane

Overkill is consistently more fun

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why do you say it'll be 5 to 10k for an engine?
> Or "not spending 5-10k" ?
>
> Turbo diesels CAN make truckloads of torque, but
> you really want to spend the time, money,
> searching, and DNFing that developing one will
> certainly take?

5-10k for a G2 engine that could attempt to keep up with the G5 numbers the current guys are making...I think that is a pretty accurate number...considering 2K+ would be in the cylinder head alone (cams, solid lifters, porting, etc, etc. etc.)...start thinking about pistons, rods, machine work, and or having someone put it all together that knows what the hell they are doing $$$$

I don't see why I would DNF any more than I currently DNF....I think there is always a certain degree of: ok we broke this again how can we make it stronger/better faster next time. Shit I have been doing that on the rabbit for three years.

My thinking: I could spend a ton more time and money on a car with limited suspension options, namely travel, and a wussy shell (the rabbit), or I could start focusing on a car that could help equalize our deficits.

As of right now I am still working on the rabbit, just starting to think about faster more marketable options for the next car. From what I have experienced locally and what I experienced at LSPR on some of the stages there, I REALLY need a car with more travel.

The diesel thing: I can see ENDLESS opportunities for local and national partnerships to run the car at a higher level with less or equal out of pocket expenses, good exposure for rally, and great exposure for those interested in footing the bill. R&D-that will be someone else's job, I am a much better marketer than I am a car builder, look at the rabbit.

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-Tom
DemonRallyTeam | Fine Tuning | CTS Turbo & RP Turbos | RalleyTuned | JRM | Meister Autowerks
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