2.0 Ecoboost to RWD, A Brief How-To
Posted by Robert Culbertson
Out of this dumpster fire Mod Moderator Join Date: 08/15/2010 Posts: 1,236 |
Grant Hughes Senior Moderator Location: Whitefish, MT Join Date: 01/11/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 6,818 Rally Car: BMW |
Mark Hille Elite Moderator Location: The hills of CT Join Date: 10/04/2011 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 135 Rally Car: I have two crap boxes |
Out of this dumpster fire Mod Moderator Join Date: 08/15/2010 Posts: 1,236 |
Come on out to the PNW! Or go take a Focus ST for a test drive if you don't feel like visiting the best corner of the US 
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John Vanlandingham Professional Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
Beer to you too..We ARE talking about parts....they are the subject...not how we "feel" about them or if we "like" them...
Well "geometry" is kinda a vague word...and this very idea has been kicked around over on Turdboatpricks where some young guy signed on and announced he is going to cast a new head for the Volvos for $500 delivered and its going to flow like (can't remember exactly because I don't remember bullshit very well) but some crazy figure higher than the documented best , seriously reworked 8v Volvo heads in the whole world and way more than the Volvo 16v.... and that with using stock intake and exhaust manifolds...and this with stock 44mm in and 35mm ex valve sizes... 
It was asked 'If the manifolds are stock, and that means the port positioning up/down is stock at the face of the head, and if the motor will use stock cams--which means the valves are in the same position in the cylinder this means the ports must begin in the same place and end in the same place as stock...(agreed)....this leaves just the short port length and the very short approach to the valve seat to accomplish what is basically a miracle.....well in excess of documented flows on very modified heads.... Here is a typical unrehersed reaction to the guy's flow figures: 
Can we get an angelic choir here? On the face of it it is folly... Sorta an "If this, then that" If stock port position, height, size, then......some small improvements can be made---but not magic doubling of flow.. Volvo head like the Lima head has ports approaching the valves at a very low approach..Lima is worse on intake and Volvo worse on exhaust. Low approach means the port must do a full 90* turn to get to the seat. Not good for flow. So all that said, the Esslinger aluminum STOCK position everything head is pretty---I've fondled them---and very pretty finish.....but same insane angles front and rear, same low approach...meh. At least its lighter, less himia (sorta like a hernia but for guys) lifting it, and aluminum is better on heat so MOAR BEWST whoopie.
Their ARCA head...oh mah gawd, that's nice. Look at it...It corresponds to the "Two Valve Evo" head made by Motordesign in Sweden We talked about it here: http://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,93517,page=3
Basically 2+2 ing claims for stuff here against documented stuff at http://www.topplocksverkstan.se/
Some of both, and using my eyes...
The Understatement of the Week Award goes to Mark Hille in Cornyeticult!!
Note: I always compared valve area but recently was corrected in this by some older guys who have been high level drag race engine builders (one won AHRA Top Fuel title once)..They said compare valve circumference instead... And yeah the design of the ports and valve sizes means the B234 thing can outflow the fuck out of a Lima---if the design is utilised optimally.... But not if the Lima is all swoot and has a nasty ass cam and the B234 guy retains the limp, lazy weenie stock cams.... I've sold TONS---who knows 20-30 sets---of pistons and rods to B234 turbo guys and ALL who have sent dyno sheets show a lazy climb to a high peak torque at around 4600 rpm and a peak HP at around 5500...Not at all impressive...The cams are lame. So either turbo or n.a. the thing wants cams---that's why I made a pile of cam cores: 
So that we could choose real profiles for what we are doing either n.a. or turbo rally And made them for the 8v motors as well.. THEN we can compare a bad-ass Lima head with a bad ass cam to a Volvo head with a bad ass cam...
Squish is squish and we want that on any motor but don't forget a big deal about "squish" is the quench effect...the cooling of the circumference of the piston by getting it as cloase as we dare to the relatively nice cool head quench pads and that applies to 8v or 16v, turbo or n.a., Ford Lima, Volvo 8v, 16v Durtec or Ecoboost... And so far all this talk of flow is one thing---getting a good gulp of air in...But next comes what we do with that gulp of air and there the 16v pent rood, narrow angle (39 degrees between valves) compact combustion chamber right over the center of the piston with a sparkie plug in the perfect position really begins to shine....the design itself is far more detonation resistant than any bathtub shaped chamber with a pluf way over the fuck on one side.
Meh. in a turbo application fuck it, the charge is going in. in n.a its vomit...
Meh again. Its ugly but reliable... I wish somebody would make one that positioned the turbo so we could use stock Cossie connecting hoses and have the same quick change capabilities as YB has.. And in all this theoretical talk it all depends on what power the goal is, and what KIND of delivery.. and for what price..
Yep especially if you actuall make some efforts at assembling it right---the question never addressed in the "caused 3 DNFs"..... But there are serious limits with motors with bores over 86-87mm, and with iron heads....And Lima and Volvo B23 are 96mm bore... They are time limited just because of the bore size and the time it takes to burn that distance--in a way a motor with 82mm or 85/86mm isn't...
At least, depending on the model...about 399BHP for some models--like TB0340
Yep: right rad, right oil cooler, right intercooler....know good stuff exists....just get it...
Good question
I don't know. Smarter guys than me are making the decisions to suit themselves....
Well oil cooling and (gasp!) just breaking down and stripping one down (zero cost) , surfacing the block ($80) and checking top ring side clearance (zero cost) and checking the condition if the oil pump, and assembling...bearings are $30 for rods and $55 for mains if you actually need them...$300 for forged flat top piston set---for the poor bastids who must obey the no-turbo for noobs bullshit...
back in 1997...YBG
Ecoboost you'll have to ask the experts... Duratec 2300 in addition to core motor say rods: $240 Pistons: $360-720 for good forged Mazdog whatever oil pump....$? KEYWAYS CUT for crank and cam gears....$? (no key ways anywhere, everything is 'spossed to stay by willpower, no bearing tang grooves in the rods, because no bearing tang on the bearings... Steel flywheel---I make 'em but somebody certainly has a cheaper thing than $325-340 and using a know good KNOWN pressure plate..I'm sure the others are some nice color and say "Stage Two" so that's good enough for most guys..
All depends on who is doing it...what skills, what knowledge base... Who can say?
Since I have weak X-ray fu, I consider and motor not running suspect, so they were "cores" and were torn down for examination.
No they were sold as is pulled--one from a friend's shop, one from a "Rally spare parts storage depot" cynically called by elitists a "junk yard".
Depends.. I also bought a pick up manual trans just to saw the bellhousing off of to study if i could make a better T5 bellhousing.... Me-otter ain't bad but no common, no known anything, and no known prices for rebuild stuff....see the presumptions i make--presuming rebuilds..Most just throw trannies away and buy another...cheaper. easier...
Maybe wrong thread but that should stop all the ex-spurts for telling you you need a Holset of a new Borg Warner because new "Technology".. Couldn't possibly be any bastic thing like cam timing--or ya bought some dumb A237 cam or you have a weenie pipe.. Can't say.. So,,we still drinking beer? 
Good... John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
haha.Mark Hille Elite Moderator Location: The hills of CT Join Date: 10/04/2011 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 135 Rally Car: I have two crap boxes |
John Vanlandingham Professional Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
Vastly more efficient in terms of combustion effciency...That's why from just a few high end cars 30 years ago, its hard to think of a car head that is not Pent roof 4 valve. And the flip side of power is effciency, same thing , different focus... As for quench/squish : didya look at the link to topplockverkstan.se? Not enough? and you want some compression and don't want a gigantic dome (to interrupt flame propagation)..Add some... B234: 
That was turbo, bigger chamber. Here's n.a. 
add some.. Carve it up: 
Thats more compression from smaller chamber and more quench.. And the one thing nice about big bores is the room ther is for bigger valve(s) Remember the circumfrence thing? 1 x 44 = 138.23mm circumfr. 1 x 34 = 106.8mm but 2 x 34 =213.6 213.6 vs 138... You can shove in a Volvo or Lima 46mm intake valves 46mm = 144 OK with seats re-done 48 = 150.8 Still a big chunk less than 213.6 which is stock size.. There's room for as large as 39mm intakes 39mm = 122.5...........x 2...........245mm Thats crazy stuff there... So if the thing can in n.a form gulp in such huge amounts, as turbo it needs only a little boost and mild ass cams...
Yeah. not having a spare is irresponsible..Its madness.. What did you say your turbo was?
I don't say, I was contracted by a very astute shop to make the cores.. Cost him 1/3 the price he was quoted in Virginia... I was first customer to buy some back though...
Who knows? The ratios are, aside from the load it on the trailer First---awfully damn nice: Gear Ratios (6-speed Manual) 1st - 3.76:1
2nd - 2.27:1 3rd - 1.65:1 4th - 1.26:1 5th - 1.00:1 6th - 0.84:1 Combine that with say a 4.5 axle ratio or better still 4.88 and you have a a ticket ride---if they hold up.. John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
Mike Ball Super Moderator Location: Simi Valley,Ca. Join Date: 07/15/2011 Age: Ancient Posts: 466 Rally Car: Nope...I wish...RWD 2 Door Jeep XJ 4.0 5-spd Dirt-o-cross car(we have no grass!)2.3 ZX3 rallyx car(sold) |
edward mucklow Senior Moderator Location: charleston,wv Join Date: 05/31/2011 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 763 Rally Car: ford mustang LX 5.0, 1973 VW Beetle |
Andrew Buerckner Elite Moderator Location: Canberra, Australia Join Date: 10/22/2011 Posts: 120 Rally Car: Daihatsu Charade GTti DOHC Turbo, and Mazda MX-5(miata) Turbo(bent) |
Mines done 3 seasons of rallying with a 4.4:1 rear full spool diff and held up. Including using flat shift and antilag. Change the oil after 5 events, diff oil every 2 events. We blew a few up on the circuit version of the same car just with a bit more power. |
Out of this dumpster fire Mod Moderator Join Date: 08/15/2010 Posts: 1,236 |
Andrew, were you running the NC 6spd or the older NA/NB 6spd? What torque was the engine putting out?
At Olympus the 3rd gear decided to shed some weight. SOMEHOW (don't ask me how), the car was able to finish a few more stages and make it all the way back to service. Cleaned some junk out, flushed the trans, filled it, and ran it. I ended up doing that 3 times, once each service. Made it all the way through the second day without 3rd and 4th. We got lucky. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2015 07:52PM by Robert Culbertson. |
Pete Remner Junior Moderator Location: Cleveland, Ohio Join Date: 01/11/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 2,022 |
Andrew Buerckner Elite Moderator Location: Canberra, Australia Join Date: 10/22/2011 Posts: 120 Rally Car: Daihatsu Charade GTti DOHC Turbo, and Mazda MX-5(miata) Turbo(bent) |
Out of this dumpster fire Mod Moderator Join Date: 08/15/2010 Posts: 1,236 |
The torque output from the ecoboost is 350lb-ft @ 21psi. That might explain the difference in success rates with the mazda 6spd
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John Vanlandingham Professional Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
Well then, that was good planning. John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
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