Found a needle in the VW Haystack
Posted by ElectroTech
Josh Wimpey Senior Moderator Location: VA Join Date: 12/27/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 649 Rally Car: Sneak the Golf |
Ron Erickson Elite Moderator Location: Fenton, MO Join Date: 11/27/2012 Age: Settling Down Posts: 6 Rally Car: 1986 VW Golf GTI |
Steve Wheeler Super Moderator Location: Fork Lake, Alberta Join Date: 06/09/2015 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 336 Rally Car: 1992 Golf |
Michel Hoche-Mong Mod Moderator Location: Campbell, CA Join Date: 02/28/2006 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 1,156 Rally Car: Golf, Golf, RX-3 |
Chris Eyre Ultra Moderator Location: London, UK Join Date: 09/07/2014 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 39 |
 
Maybe, just maybe, it’s down to the driver. VWMotorsport.info | SeatSport.info | 4 VW Golf Mk3 A59s exclusively revealed > here < |
Chris Eyre Ultra Moderator Location: London, UK Join Date: 09/07/2014 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 39 |
There's a chance he pre-dates the tall block 2.0 16v engine work? Unless he was doing work for Harri Jokki in the early to mid '90s? This is who I'd contact: Heinz Lehmann Lehmann Motoren-Technik AG Schliessa 8 9495 Triesen +423 392 3440
Maybe, just maybe, it’s down to the driver. VWMotorsport.info | SeatSport.info | 4 VW Golf Mk3 A59s exclusively revealed > here < |
John Vanlandingham Senior Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
I was in contact during 93-94 and then busy till I was back in Seattle in 00.. I called just to say Hi! at some point...so as of 02 he was still doing VW stuff... I trust the Swedes over any German anytime.. Long record of VW, and Opel farming their rally engine development to Sweden...VW to Forssberg, Opel to Janne Carneborn (who is actually Norwegian but has been in Sweden since time began---I knew of them as early as 1972, used thenm for cylinder boring) in Nacka at Enem...Madza back in the days of MRT Europe in Bryssel farmed rally engine development to Enem, the lead guy being an the guy who in '72 told me to go to them when he was working at Team Eneqvist, my local Husqvarna shop, his name was Ragnar ''Ragge'' Moberg.. Sorry but prior to VW's current program, the Germans are too rigid and class bound to make good rally engines....it's ''Herr Dr Finkelbaum has designed it, who are YOU to say how it can be better? '' I said that--and a bit more on some furrin forum where there were a couple of ex-WRC drivers, Pentti Arikala and Warmbold son, adn there is a small but not entirely insignificant chance that they, especially Arikala might know something a bit more than ANY of us..he quoted the etire spiel and said ''Perfect---exactly!'' Even the Finns go to Sweden for the best developed motors.... For example some guy named Grönholm for work on that rallycross car Frod Siesta or whatever it was.. Here os some interesting reading: http://www.stahlmotor.se/Teknik/Hastkrafter/hastkrafter.html 
There's just one thing I don't understand and maybe somebody can help me here a little.. It is claimed ITB or something similar is "not needed" and some big HP is available using stock whatever manifold.. Why then on MkIII cars did VW ---and everybody else---switch to ITB the instant it was allowed: 
And why do ALL these dinosaur Swedes---people paid by factories to do rally engine R&D for decades---as well as developent work/builds for ordinary humans---always any time rules permit--go carbs or ITBs.. Are they all fools? Or cynics and think "we" all are? John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
Steve Wheeler Super Moderator Location: Fork Lake, Alberta Join Date: 06/09/2015 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 336 Rally Car: 1992 Golf |
My plans have not changed.....still waiting for someone to chime in on the original question. I'm contemplating using a set of Honda CBR1100XX throttle bodies, this would require building a custom manifold, just a little bit trickier on the 16V because of the injector bosses. The other issue is that most of these are street driven so the rubber connection to the manifold is fine, hate to have a hard landing and have your throttles pop off......I guess it would show your gumption, shut it down or drive it home WFO lol! These home built setups do work but it's a matter of time for me, so many other things to do. I will keep an eye out for some direct to head on the used market and if I don't fine any I will build. Power means nothing if you cannot control it! |
Josh Wimpey Senior Moderator Location: VA Join Date: 12/27/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 649 Rally Car: Sneak the Golf |
No, they decided they wanted 250-280hp rather than 220 and figured they would be at a disadvantage. That is like asking why a team moved from a 1.5 litre motor to a 2.0 litre motor when the rules changed to allow it.... ____________________________________________________________- One. Class -- 2WD www.quantumrallysport.com http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Quantum-Rally-Sport/281129179600?ref=nf |
Chris Eyre Ultra Moderator Location: London, UK Join Date: 09/07/2014 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 39 |
The move to ITBs was a result of the relaxing of FIA Group A rules in the mid-1990s and the creation of Kit variants, found in the 'VO' homologation extensions.
All where previously the manufacturers had to use standard plenums, standard exhaust manifolds, standard cranks, rods etc. -> FIA Formula 2, Ford Escort Maxis, Clio Maxis, Almeras, Ibizas etc. Cue all manner of engine geometry changes as a weapons-grade war broke out, unlimited rpms, and 84 x 90mm Golf engines, previously only seen in the Audi 80 Competition / A4 touring car engine (85mm bore). That explains the 220bhp to 260/280bhp published figures in such a short space of time. Golf engines built by Lehmann and also Mader for the Seat shortblock 16vs amongst others.
Maybe, just maybe, it’s down to the driver. VWMotorsport.info | SeatSport.info | 4 VW Golf Mk3 A59s exclusively revealed > here < |
John Vanlandingham Senior Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
I will be just a little more pointed since you are being intentionallty obtuse. I chose to believe those Swedish guys paid to do R&D about the max you can do--in a rally motor--with any stock VW (and Saab and Volvo) intake manifold, and what THEY said the problem was---runner volume and port velocity needed for road car use--- -rather than whoever it was you talked to and what they convinced you to believe. Josh, you accuse me of "trolling". I'm not, and I can "accuse" you of intention obtuseness and willful dogmatism.. So there! I asked and will keep asking to drive a point home, in an vain effort toward DIALOG. Why does EVERY engine guy for DECADES, when the rules and budget allow, go ITBs or sidedraft carbs? Even for the relatively mild, power-curve biased engines we wish for in rally? Why don't they retain the stock intake manifolds 9and just jam on giant throttle bodies like is required on American brand specialty forumz? And a individual question: do you ever speak with serious---by that I mean not your local machine shop guy----engine development people about PORT VELOCITY? Did you follow the link? http://www.stahlmotor.se/Teknik/Hastkrafter/hastkrafter.html This guy has done things----who do you think knows more and has more experience? Your motor --judging from the in-car videos especially the sounds----SEEMS like an extremely mild motor and again SEEMS to be driven quite conservatively..... Not everybody wants to do that... Can THEY discuss the direction they want to go? John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
Josh Wimpey Senior Moderator Location: VA Join Date: 12/27/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 649 Rally Car: Sneak the Golf |
John Vanlandingham Senior Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
Chris Eyre Ultra Moderator Location: London, UK Join Date: 09/07/2014 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 39 |
Erm - see below. It's solely because the rules changed. Absolute gospel. No forum gossip.
Maybe, just maybe, it’s down to the driver. VWMotorsport.info | SeatSport.info | 4 VW Golf Mk3 A59s exclusively revealed > here < |
Josh Wimpey Senior Moderator Location: VA Join Date: 12/27/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 649 Rally Car: Sneak the Golf |
Good grief John. The numbers are not just from me, they are from VW as Chris posted above (and he is surely far deeper in the know that you are on matters VW related) and many other sources confirmed over the past 23 years the ABF motors have been around. You sure your guy wasn't talking about the 1987-1992 16v motor with the little bitty intake manifold like the US spec cars all had?
Again --- Stock manifold GpA output specs from VWMS directly ---> 163kw = 219hp The VWMS parts catalog & spec/setup sheets even shows the manifolds and part numbers so you can see for yourself. ____________________________________________________________- One. Class -- 2WD www.quantumrallysport.com http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Quantum-Rally-Sport/281129179600?ref=nf |
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