volvo 240 brake system

I'm looking for suggestions on the brake system for my 1990 Volvo 240. It's currently set up with the stock diagonal system with two ports on the junction block plugged,front RX7 turbo calipers, Hawk black pads and hawk hps in the rear. The vehicle is used as a trackday car, with minimal street use. My concern is the the brake bias is not predictable, I feel that unloaded rear tire locks when trail braking. I'm curious as to how currently campaigned Volvo rally cars are set up regarding the brake system.

Mike Samartano

The rx7 calipers have smaller bores, so you moved the brake bias rearward when you did the swap.
According to Al, PBR metal masters (if you can find them) are a great pad. I've used them in many cars and really like them. I like the hawk hps pads in the Volvo rally car as well.
Also, we removed the risidual valves in the rear and installed a Wilwood brake bias valve in the rear circuit. Allows for less rear brake if you want.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/12/2015 02:59PM by Robert Culbertson.

According to me PBR Metalmasters are pure shit--except shit is oist and doesn't catch on fire as readily as the Metal masters I tried once time--ONE time---a mere 250kmSS and was down to the metal backing plates

But hey what the fuck do I know compared to "I like" type analysis.

Yeah stick in a limiter just BEFORE the handbrake master..

Or put on some calipers that have pistons bigger than stockers--which are 4 x 1.5" aka 38mm

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
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is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Would deleting the junction block be a good idea? I'd like to run one line off the master, "T" off to both fronts. Another line from the master to an adjustable limiter to another "T" to each rear caliper? Am I over thinking this?

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a1only
Would deleting the junction block be a good idea? I'd like to run one line off the master, "T" off to both fronts. Another line from the master to an adjustable limiter to another "T" to each rear caliper? Am I over thinking this?

Yeah a bit...What happened to your hydraulic handbrake in the circuit?

Isn't there 2 outlets from the master for front?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham
According to me PBR Metalmasters are pure shit--except shit is oist and doesn't catch on fire as readily as the Metal masters I tried once time--ONE time---a mere 250kmSS and was down to the metal backing plates

But hey what the fuck do I know compared to "I like" type analysis.

Yeah stick in a limiter just BEFORE the handbrake master..

Or put on some calipers that have pistons bigger than stockers--which are 4 x 1.5" aka 38mm

John, Im betting that the NEW metal master pads are made of a completely different compound then what you ran. We have over 600mi of endurance racing on a set of pads, they're at half life. Albert swears by them on the Volvo. Broski isn't running a hydro handbrake.

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Robert Culbertson

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john vanlandingham
According to me PBR Metalmasters are pure shit--except shit is oist and doesn't catch on fire as readily as the Metal masters I tried once time--ONE time---a mere 250kmSS and was down to the metal backing plates

But hey what the fuck do I know compared to "I like" type analysis.

Yeah stick in a limiter just BEFORE the handbrake master..

Or put on some calipers that have pistons bigger than stockers--which are 4 x 1.5" aka 38mm

John, Im betting that the NEW metal master pads are made of a completely different compound then what you ran. We have over 600mi of endurance racing on a set of pads, they're at half life. Albert swears by them on the Volvo. Broski isn't running a hydro handbrake.

I'm sure they're just marvelous..
And just for the record, "everybody' said exactly the same thing way back when..."Marvelous" " "My roadrace car has gone 2 years and they're like new!"

So it must be true.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

If a consumable isn't acting like a consumable is it doing it's job?

---

Grant Hughes

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john vanlandingham
According to me PBR Metalmasters are pure shit--except shit is oist and doesn't catch on fire as readily as the Metal masters I tried once time--ONE time---a mere 250kmSS and was down to the metal backing plates

So... looking for the meta message I get "if you think the PBR Metalmaters are good, then you're not breaking hard enough to see how bad they are?"

Close?

I've always wondered how heavy you could break with gravel tires on gravel.
I'd also guess that LFB adds to the wear signifcantly... was that part of your issue do you think John?

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ALS FTW

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john vanlandingham
I've always wondered how heavy you could break with gravel tires on gravel.
I'd also guess that LFB adds to the wear signifcantly... was that part of your issue do you think John?

JV don't left foot brake, he uses extra pad to make up for the time lost removing lead foot from accelerator pedal and moving it to the turn kinetic energy into heat and pad dust pedal.

---

Andrew Steere
Lyndeborough, NH
KB1PJY

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ALS FTW

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john vanlandingham
According to me PBR Metalmasters are pure shit--except shit is oist and doesn't catch on fire as readily as the Metal masters I tried once time--ONE time---a mere 250kmSS and was down to the metal backing plates

So... looking for the meta message I get "if you think the PBR Metalmaters are good, then you're not breaking hard enough to see how bad they are?"

Close?

I've always wondered how heavy you could break with gravel tires on gravel.
I'd also guess that LFB adds to the wear signifcantly... was that part of your issue do you think John?

Could be.. could be also that Culbertson has not driven any rally ever as far as I know, or minimally, so his reporting is second hand reporting of what could be---for all we know---some Lemons or Chumpcar 'endurance' "racing"...we really have no idea..
I have known many who "like" Metalmasters..
They were all incredibly slow.

The event in question---and the ONLY time I used them in a rally after the horrible performance---was 1987 Rocky Mountain...some VERY fast stages---but on the other hand a VERY LIGHT car at right around 2000 lbs with --back then---some of the larger discs around.
So light car, big brakes, short gearing---max maybe 170 km/hr...

And fire at the end the first real SS, (we did a lttle foo-foo fun SS around the Canajian Tire on the edge of town---and it was there where I first got to see just how well---devastating is the word---a 240 Volvo turbo can be when driven by a guy who knows what he's doing--in that case Bo Skovronek) more heavy smoke, fade, and rapid wear...

Certainly there is a chance that PRB may have changed their compound since then----but an actual brake engineer from Australia went on at great detail about "street" compounds not terribly long ago---5-6 years ago--on Turbobricks...
After that I feel there is a high likelihood its the same old same old..

Now, how hard can you brake? The its a dynamic thing---and loose gravel is bad..

But it is a simple fact that the more one brakes---and shifts weight forward, the more one can brake...The point not being as soooo sooo many say "I can lock my brakes now---obviously i don't need more brakes"
The question is how close to lock can we get at what effort---without the braking to that point impinging on consciousness unduly?

Left Foot Braking---which bear in mind is an advance braking technique---- is more of a "social marker" that an important thing for any amateur to worry about..

No1 rule is FIRST THINGS FIRST...
FIRST learn to BRAKE...
When one has mastered that in say ohhh 10 years of frequent driving :beyond comfort level", then one can think about little finesse tricky things.

Additionally, the endless claims of complete amateurs that "LFB is indispensable" which the repeat again as a linguistic social marker---are easy to see as hooo-ha by just reflecting a moment.

Indispensable---and "better"---compared to what?

Who has done same day same corner same everything and LFBed, timed it and then repeated the corner and just braked correctly (vigourously), timed that and compared..
Nobody..
Its all assertion and claims....like a lotta specialty interest groups its a "hallmark" of rally crowd "LFB!!"-----one says, and all whose Left knees jerk are your brothers.

I am in this sport an amateur---I don't bother with frewfy stuff like LFB, I just brake.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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john vanlandingham
No1 rule is FIRST THINGS FIRST...
FIRST learn to BRAKE...
When one has mastered that in say ohhh 10 years of frequent driving :beyond comfort level", then one can think about little finesse tricky things.

So... do simple things well, not complex things poorly?

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john vanlandingham
Who has done same day same corner same everything and LFBed, timed it and then repeated the corner and just braked correctly (vigourously), timed that and compared..
Nobody..

If you're asking who among us... no doubt you're right. I can't imagine truly 'nobody' has tested it. In fact I though t I read on here that someone - who is now banned from the site for a name violation - had done exactly that type of testing.

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ALS FTW

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john vanlandingham
No1 rule is FIRST THINGS FIRST...
FIRST learn to BRAKE...
When one has mastered that in say ohhh 10 years of frequent driving :beyond comfort level", then one can think about little finesse tricky things.

So... do simple things well, not complex things poorly?

Quote
john vanlandingham
Who has done same day same corner same everything and LFBed, timed it and then repeated the corner and just braked correctly (vigourously), timed that and compared..
Nobody..

If you're asking who among us... no doubt you're right. I can't imagine truly 'nobody' has tested it. In fact I though t I read on here that someone - who is now banned from the site for a name violation - had done exactly that type of testing.

Do one thing well. Then the next thing well. Then the next. Repeat.

As for repeatability...kinda problematic in one way...

As amateurs, each 'operation" improves our skills set by some measure..the % being greater effect the less experience one has....which includes most here.

Do the corner once, next time you ought to be better at that corner--regardless of what collection of initials you may choose to claim/believe as the reason for improvement..

Just look at SS times any time a stage is repeated...Very often drastic improvements in time...eye popping sometimes

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Do one thing well. Then the next thing well. Then the next. Repeat.

OK, that makes sense.

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john vanlandingham
As for repeatability...kinda problematic in one way...
Do the corner once, next time you ought to be better at that corner--regardless of what collection of initials you may choose to claim/believe as the reason for improvement..

I get that for sure, and it makes a lot of sense during events, but there are testing days that can be used for figuring things out.

I thought I saw it posted here, but found it in a private email instead. It comes from a discussion about test days that they hold up here regularly.

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Test days are good for learning, but it does take some discipline to make the most of the opportunity. Basically you want to run until your stage times are consistently within the same second for several runs in a row. Once you can do that, then you can start playing with things and seeing 'measurable' differences.
We did this when we wanted to look at the impact of LFB on stage times, we 'warmed up' the stage using LFB, and then did runs with 'normal' braking. We expected it to be slower, so we put it in a slot where - if anything - the stage time should naturally creep faster. Even with a driver just starting LFB, the drop when going back to regular braking was about .5 sec/k. Off course the real world isn't a lab so you will get variances between runs, so you have to look at trends and data over several passes. Even then, its only the 'big' differences that show up clearly - particularly on a short test stage.

This thread didn't go well. I was hoping for acutual information, not a pissing match about brake pads and left foot braking. John, I don't rally and I don't have a "hydro" hand brake. Thank you to Robert for an actual reply. I was warned about this forum, now I know why, have fun guys, it's been real.

Mike Sam