STI or EVO

all hypothetical for now (dreaming of winning the lotto)

Given equivalent builds (quality of parts, fabrication and level of detail) what would be a better rally car an STI or an EVO.

Neither. Milligan engined Esquirt.

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"Talk about drugs. Driving a car like that, going that fast, it’s like all the drugs at once." - Tommy Byrne

"Now, Pinky, if by any chance you are captured during this mission, remember you are Gunther Heindriksen from Appenzell. You moved to Grindelwald to drive the cog train to Murren. Can you repeat that?" - The Brain

Lambo

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Dave Grenwis - DG Rally - www.dgrally.com

Quote
wvonkessler
Neither. Milligan engined Esquirt.

errr....
Millington...

Haydon Paddon at New Zealand Rally Championship round last year beating every single turbo 4wd car in a Appendix K Historic MkII Group4 car with a 1600cc engine from 1970--on carbs---effectively
proved that...

But if the choice was ONLY one or the other...then, as one wag said in 2000 a few weeks after WRC Wales:
"Oi mate, how do you beat a £125,000 Subaru?"

I dunno, how?

"Tha's easy! Just buy a £27,000 Evo"

As if the approximately 30-33 Evo to 1 Subaru ratio out in the greater world was not evidence enough..

Vastly better engine, more tolerant of boost thanks to an 85mm bore--better for a restrictor engine, stronger rods, WAY stronger crankshaft, way stronger block, way easier to service turbo--12-13 minute turbo changes, a gearbox that both has better ratios, but is stronger, better engine placement right over more or less the wheels instead of hanging miles ahead...certainly better rear diff and rear suspension design.

And sounds like a car and not like a farting elephant..

The difference is mainly not how they go but how living with the car over time is.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I have a close close relationship with a shop that specialized in Evos and STis. Evo wins in ease of most maintenence, and by FAR wins in reliability.

Less important, but the evo makes more power with less modifications, and does it reliably.

I just assumed you're comparing evo 8/9. If you're thinking 10 is a while different animal.

Did I say Evos are more reliable?

S10 ZR2 with a 5.3 swap. The Internet told me so.

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Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.

Quote
Paddy1337
I have a close close relationship with a shop that specialized in Evos and STis. Evo wins in ease of most maintenence, and by FAR wins in reliability.

Less important, but the evo makes more power with less modifications, and does it reliably.

I just assumed you're comparing evo 8/9. If you're thinking 10 is a while different animal.

Did I say Evos are more reliable?

Any but especially once they turned the motor around, what Evo4?

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Yep. Evo 3 parts are what the GVR4 guys rave about, as good as it got before everything was flipped and reengineered.

Most think the 9 has been the best 4g63 powered vehicle, ever. And for the application of rally I'd agree. We're lucky enough to have received them in decent quantities in North America, and non-pretty abused examples are getting stupid cheap thanks to kids getting their hands on them.

My favorite is probably the 7, as advanced as it got while still being raw. In NA we first got the Evo in 2003, when the 8 was released. Avoid the MR 6-speed trans, it's only good on paper but garbage in motorsport.

John,
The post asks STI or EVO. Not wrx or evo... Yes, an evo is superior but your criticism of the sti gearbox ratios and strength are false. The 6spd has excellent ratios and is extremely durable as is the r180 rear diff. There are many, many tricks to servicing Subaru's too. Tranny's and turbos are much easier than the Mitsu. Stop the hate Brah. Many of us on your little site just so happen to like our Subaru's.

Quote
AaronJMcConnell
John,
The post asks STI or EVO. Not wrx or evo... Yes, an evo is superior but your criticism of the sti gearbox ratios and strength are false. The 6spd has excellent ratios and is extremely durable as is the r180 rear diff. There are many, many tricks to servicing Subaru's too. Tranny's and turbos are much easier than the Mitsu. Stop the hate Brah. Many of us on your little site just so happen to like our Subaru's.

Aaron don't get all Jay Dee EM and You Es Dee Em --they're all fucking WRX/STI/WTF Subarus,
Sorry. The engines are, RELATIVE to 4g63---doo doo...

Yeah the trannies come out, seen that often enough, REAL OFTEN when guys pop the shitty 5 speeds constantly..Watched a nice 17 minute swap by Dave Clark on the street for Pat Richard back when he just was starting out at a service.. 17 minutes cause he had so much practice changing them constantly.
ONLY the 6 speed iis worth a damn according to Pat Richard and I believe Pat on that:
So come on mang, don't get defensive and snotty--
-instead ---tell us: Does EVERY Impreza whatever WRX/STI/WTF have a 6 speed?

Well?

Did the 5 speeds that used to die constantly 12-14 years ago miraculously improve with age?

Doubt it.

Tell us what the ratios are rather than asserting that they're good..I've posted all the WRX/STI/WTF ratios a number of times, as well as the various Gaylant/Eclipsed/Taron ratios and the Evobitchy ratios. You can too if you want to contribute something useful..

And Aaron stop listening to Grant too much, he's been cramming a lot of words in my mouth and then critcising me for saying something and evidently ruining his rally career.

No hate for the cars, they're just things..
What I dislike is this "build it do three events and disappear" scenario and guys burnt out and broke thing because they listened to guys claim and assert this or that and bought something, it was full of "surprises" and they get de-stoked.

Here's a chart for Evo whatever:


Let's compare what all those blue whatever the fuck they're called have for ratios..can we do that?

And then let the numbers do the talking..not snide assertions and accusations.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

'04 STI: 3.90 r&p
1- 3.636
2- 2.375
3- 1.761
4- 1.346
5- .971
6- .756
GroupN Spec C ratios: 4.44 r&p
1-4 same as above, 5th 1.062, 6th .842

Quote
Paddy1337
Yep. Evo 3 parts are what the GVR4 guys rave about, as good as it got before everything was flipped and reengineered.

Most think the 9 has been the best 4g63 powered vehicle, ever. And for the application of rally I'd agree. We're lucky enough to have received them in decent quantities in North America, and non-pretty abused examples are getting stupid cheap thanks to kids getting their hands on them.

How much do they mechanically interchange with the earlier cars? Hardpoints and such.

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Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.

Quote
Pete
How much do they mechanically interchange with the earlier cars? Hardpoints and such.

Well, as a N.A./USDM market, you've only got the 8/9 which are mechanically nearly identical. Essentially the 9 was given variable cam timing. There's nothing available in the US to share with.

Nothing from a DSM or GVR4 will mount into an Evo. The engines aren't just flipped around, it's actually a mirror image. So if you flipped an engine so the timing was pointing the right way, you'd find the intake and exhaust are backwards too.

That said, inside the engines are similar from a measurement standpoint. Just like JVL said, bore and stroke, etc. You can put an evo piston and rod into a dsm motor.

Probably the biggest thing worth mentioning between the old shit and evo 7-9, is drivetrain. Not only is the new stuff stronger, and better geared, but it's mechanically a while different concept. Diff locations, input/output shaft duties, viscous/clutch/gear, final drives.

In an evo, you can change a final drive and everything is happy. In the older stuff, you have to match rear diffs and stuff. Splines are different on everything old year to year. On an 8/9 you can swap from open diff to active center, 8 trans to 9, mix and match gears; is really simple stuff. On early 90s Era you gotta know every detail.

Clear as mud? Did I even answer your question? Nothing mounts from old to new or other way, nadda

In an EVO, 3,6 or 9. Leave the rest of them for people you don't like. In Aussie, at least in NSW the club rally guys are buying up 94-00 Impreza WRX's. They have worked out that they go well with an ecu change, 6 speed from the GD Impreza STI, decent brake pads and hello new rally car.

The Subaru may well have it's limitations however they are cheap to buy here and can be improved in stages (steps). Sold new here there are plenty available. EVO was not sold new here. The EVO is undoubtedly very good out of the box, however here very expensive.

Also the Subaru Impreza poverty pack cars can be easily converted to WRX spec, doing one now.All panels same except bonnet. 1st Gen RS Legacy to GC Impreza, bonnet +front bar + wing and you are done.

Try converting CC Lancer to EVO3 or CE Lancer to EVO4+ it simply does not happen without major surgery.

Quote
autronic
In an EVO, 3,6 or 9. Leave the rest of them for people you don't like. In Aussie, at least in NSW the club rally guys are buying up 94-00 Impreza WRX's. They have worked out that they go well with an ecu change, 6 speed from the GD Impreza STI, decent brake pads and hello new rally car.

The Subaru may well have it's limitations however they are cheap to buy here and can be improved in stages (steps). Sold new here there are plenty available. EVO was not sold new here. The EVO is undoubtedly very good out of the box, however here very expensive.

Also the Subaru Impreza poverty pack cars can be easily converted to WRX spec, doing one now.All panels same except bonnet. 1st Gen RS Legacy to GC Impreza, bonnet +front bar + wing and you are done.

Try converting CC Lancer to EVO3 or CE Lancer to EVO4+ it simply does not happen without major surgery.

its not that bad, but its not quick either, use first gen outlander parts

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I would rather drive a slow car fast as a fast car slow!
first rule of cars: get what makes you happy, your the one paying for it!