Mark 4 VW 1.8T GTi Build - RallyCross - MF Class

Sounds like some interesting research to do.

Thanks guys.

I will do some test fits, as the Speed shop I have it at, bought it from, has plenty of wheels rolling around. If I can get a Mk. 3 VR6 wheel to fit in 15", then I will stay with the stock brakes.

I am Not going to go to smaller brakes than what came stock on the Mk. 4 GTi. I am not smarter than VW engineering or R&D, and I will just not, repeat NOT go smaller.

However, if the Mk. 3 VR6 idea goes well, I can keep the calipers from the 337/AE kit, and sell the brackets to someone else who wants bigger rotors.

That still nets me with a complete spare set of front calipers (Racing = spares on the trailer). I can recoup what I spent simply from selling the brackets to another VW fan-boy.

I will keep the 17" 's and use them for Tarmac, if I ever get to that point. Instead of buying 16" Sparcos, I can look into 15" wheels (even VW group stockers) for my mud/grass/rain/etc... tire choices.

Quote
DanielSL
Sounds like some interesting research to do.

Thanks guys.

I will do some test fits, as the Speed shop I have it at, bought it from, has plenty of wheels rolling around. If I can get a Mk. 3 VR6 wheel to fit in 15", then I will stay with the stock brakes.

I am Not going to go to smaller brakes than what came stock on the Mk. 4 GTi.

I am not smarter than VW engineering or R&D, and I will just not, repeat NOT go smaller.

However, if the Mk. 3 VR6 idea goes well, I can keep the calipers from the 337/AE kit, and sell the brackets to someone else who wants bigger rotors.

That still nets me with a complete spare set of front calipers (Racing = spares on the trailer). I can recoup what I spent simply from selling the brackets to another VW fan-boy.

I will keep the 17" 's and use them for Tarmac, if I ever get to that point. Instead of buying 16" Sparcos, I can look into 15" wheels (even VW group stockers) for my mud/grass/rain/etc... tire choices.

Hang on just a second..
I frequently ask children, noobs, newbs novices when they have some BWILLIANT ideas "Dontcha think that the people that made the ________________ had maybe just a few more resources available to lead them in a certain direction and thus make the thing like-a-dis?'

But slow down a sec
You were given brains too, even though my cousin Earl said you thought they said TRAINs and said "Gimme a slow one"...The Nemenski engineers who decided what size brakes and calipers to stick on YOUR Golf had a big numbers of factors but use your brains and remember that SALES is a big one and in SALES that STYLING is a YUuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuUUGE factor in SALE.
The current fad---in order to sell cars to a generation of immature consumeroids brought up on the car equivalent of anami--in which select features are exaggerated to ridiculous scale, calls for min 17" wheels X" wide, absurdly low profile tires and after a near generation of seeing "RICERs" do this and leave the stock tiny discs which came on Japanese Junk with 13 or 14" wheels and all of us laughing at them---Les Allemandes could not NOT

fill the wheel.

They had their considerations to weigh those Fritzies...it is not Ein Folk! Ein Land! Ein---you know the rest.. Various marketing decisions trumps all else.

Still using the brains you were given, you should remember what is TYPICAL brake size in a car THAT size when used in serious hard competition (National Championship level in say Sweden or England) on gravel ELSEWHERE in the world is approx 27 x 285mm front and 9.5 x 280 rear..
and if they can surive driving far harder than anybody in the US with that size, then there is really no issue to worry about going smaller than the things used really just to fill a wheel which was chosen for marketing reasons...

Main point: NO DOGMA...and use PRAXIS (or empirical reasoning)....really everything we do is based on previous experience..It's all been done before, our big worry is how to do things affordably..We (some of us) don't need to "discover" anything (for the level we are doing things).
We need to learn to source stuff we can afford (and afford to replace again and again: brakes, including calipers, are wear items)

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/06/2016 12:44PM by john vanlandingham.

Quote
Thomas Kimsey
Fastest guys in our region run 14" dmacks (and sometimes michelins I think) on their mk3 golf. Consistently get fastest time of the day against a lot of subarus.

Never underestimate the ability of a 2-liter A3 Golf on 14" rally tires to quickly nagivate a tight course. They're friggin' magic.

---

Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.

Quote
john vanlandingham

Quote
Thomas Kimsey
Fastest guys in our region run 14" dmacks (and sometimes michelins I think) on their mk3 golf. Consistently get fastest time of the day against a lot of subarus.

Yeah. To me that makes sense..twisty, short, low speed we want the car to be low, and turn., so short tires and suspension travel. Not Super Swamper Max Mudder 28" diameter thangs.

For the four years I have gone to Nationals, the winner in the Modified AWD class was on little 195/65 tires, not the huge gigantic WRC sized things. The car was also Prepared legal, meaning no modifications allowed except for brakes, suspension, and "bolt on" upgrades. Lightweight brakes, lightweight wheels/tires, stay glued to the ground and change direction quickly. Against a sea of Subarus with lots of chassis lightening and interior removal and stuff but no suspension/brakes lightening (so unsprung:sprung weight ratio is ALL upgefuckt) and tires way way too large for good instantaneous side grip.

Meanwhile, my GTI is getting a "reduce unsprung weight at all costs" diet, still debating on whether to go with Sprint car octagonal scalloped rotors and slim Wilwoods or just put motorcycle rotors/calipers on the thing... it will weigh maybe 1600lb soaking wet, make 150hp if I bribe the dyno operator, runs are 30-90 second long, and most slowing is done by pitching sideways, brake heat is NOT something to worry about, so the less mass in the brakes, the more grip you have over rough stuff... everyone is fast where it is smooth, time is made up where it is rough, need to make grip in the rough stuff and grow balls big enough to go fast through the rough stuff, that's all you need.

---

Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.

Quote
DanielSL
I am Not going to go to smaller brakes than what came stock on the Mk. 4 GTi. I am not smarter than VW engineering or R&D, and I will just not, repeat NOT go smaller.

Your goal is to build for RallyX right? If so, you do NOT need big rotors. Just something that will slow the car down a little bit twice a minute and transfer some weight.

Also you can get some super awesome stuff that will blow the socks off your stock brakes that fit under a 15" wheel.

Stage Three:

Fitted the upper rear stress bar. Finished removing the rear interior and sound deadening. Removed the seat belts, along with passenger side front.

Removed the stock steering wheel, and fitted the quick release hub, along with Momo Millennium steering wheel. Sourced a set of black housing Mark 4 headlights. Didn't matter much about the housings, but they came fitted with HID bulbs already, so was worth the purchase, since I needed one headlight anyways.

Teaser; for the Build...

My mechanic has sourced me a Mk. 1 225 HP TT Quattro. So here comes the 225 Hp 1.8T, the 6 speed trans., the quick ratio steering rack, Aluminum lower control arms and subframe, bigger knuckles, and the larger, vented rear brakes.

This big long list of things completely and utterly unnecessary and many just flat wrong, obviously very expensive, and references to "my mechanic found" which means the work is being done by somebody else.... and you can't afford good suspension.
The
Number
one
thing...

I am beginning to think somebody is pulling our collective legs.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

John;

It seems you missed the very first post in this thread. The one which states that, "This will be a slow build, piece by piece, as budget allows."

Or maybe you missed the title of the thread that this was a RallyCross build.

NOT a WRC car. NOT a Pro Rally car. Not a Stage rally car. A RallyCross build. Where most of the Modified Class are running No cage, No bar, and most are running Street coilover kits, with whatever springs will give them the ground clearance they are looking for.

I asked you to give me advice on suspension, and quote me. I gave you a budget of $1200-1500 for shocks and springs Only. That is a budget for a good suspension. You couldn't help. And that's fine.

I did NOT ask for your condescending tone. Nor did I ask for your shit talking, or presumptions.

1500 might not be enough for one of your suspensions, but it will allow for a good suspension - for a RallyCross car. What gives you the right to say I cannot afford a good suspension? My ITB Rabbit GTi had a $10,000+ suspension under it back in the early 90's when I was still a college kid. Is it Because you think you are that great, or Because I am unwilling to spend your quoted price for a hobby, one day a month budget build? Go F yourself, and your presumptions, you pompous prick.

I am doing most of the work on this build myself, and what I do not have time for, or specialty tools for, will be farmed out to my mechanic. So what? Again, who gives a rats ass about what you think about that? I asked him to source me a 225 TT, so I could get a reliable 250-275 Hp to my wheels without modifying the engine to a point where I would lose reliability. I also get a quick ratio rack, a 6 speed tranny, aluminum lower control arms, larger, vented rear brakes, a better subframe, and other great upgrades. He owns a shop, so he has the contacts, and accounts needed to find it.

If you cannot give advice, and not have a hissyfit if its not taken 100%, or be positive; stay the F off of my thread you f-ing arse.

I heard so much negative about you both in e-mails and on phone calls with plenty of rallyists, shop owners, vendors, and suppliers. I let it go in one ear and out the other, because the internet is full of stupidity and keyboard commandos. Sadly, everything I have been told has turned out to be true. I don't give a damn if were the best suspension set-up guy in the history of rallying; you're still a pompous, condescending piece of shit.


Reiterated For all: This is a budget build for RallyCross only, and to be a fun hobby. Stay positive, stay helpful; Or stay the hell out of my thread.

Quote
john vanlandingham
This big long list of things completely and utterly unnecessary and many just flat wrong, obviously very expensive, and references to "my mechanic found" which means the work is being done by somebody else.... and you can't afford good suspension.
The
Number
one
thing...

I am beginning to think somebody is pulling our collective legs.

Sounds about right for a "typical" rallycross "build". Waste time and effort stripping out the car, making it thoroughly unpleasant on the street and no performance benefit on course, add a bunch of crap that is completely unimportant, get waxed by someone in a stock Neon.

---

Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.

Pete;

Since you're actually on-topic, I will give you the rational explanation.

Car was already missing front and rear seats, when I bought it as a rolling chassis. As you need rear seats, with a "Prepared" class build, it made more sense to build it as a "Modified" class, then to spend unneeded expense on replacing the rear seats, and parcel shelf.

After a near fatal motorcycle crash last year, I refuse to run anything without a bar/cage; and to do it properly, the rear seats would have had to have been removed anyways.

That is all well and good, but the "stress bar" does nothing, the bigger brakes have no purpose on the car when you should be running tall 14" tires or maaaybe narrow/short 15" tires (but still probably 175/70-14s, like the Black Rockets that work so well for what we do) so they are best turned into eBay fodder, etc.

6 speed is a good choice compared to the 5 speed junk boxes. Just be gentle with the shifting, the 1/2 slider is fragile, and that's most of what your shifting will be.

I wouldn't bother at all with the TT rack. It's not "quick", just less slow. A 2:1 quickener on the rack you have now would be way better. Drive around the whole course without having to move your hands except to shift.

I'm also biased heavily against turbo engines, I don't like the power delivery at all. In a 2wd car power delivery is almost more important than actual power.

---

Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/16/2016 04:55PM by Pete.

Pete;

Very true regarding the stress bar, and it will do even more of nothing once the cage goes in. The reason I went with it, besides getting a stupid good deal on it, was because of how high it mounts compared to other "rear upper" bars. It actually mounts in the upper rear seat belt mounts - where the cage will not tie in at all. So even if it reduces flex in the upper C pillars 2-5%, it was worth less than 50 bucks. It is supposed to keep the rattling in the hatch area down as explained by the autocross guys, so it was a cheap enough experiment.

After listening to John and others advice, I will be sourcing some 15" 's and using most likely 195/65 tires for the actual dirt. The 17" 's will be kept for tarmac use in the end. For now, they are good to keep the car rolling between my garage, my shop, the mechanics shop, and the welding shop, as needed over the summer.

I am actually leaning for staying with the 5 speed, and selling the 6 speed with the rest of the AWD components to recoup some of the expense of the TT purchase. The 6 speed with rear output is a lot heavier, and 1st gear in it is almost useless. For the sugar sand events we have here in Central Florida, it looks like I will spend most time in 1st and 2nd, with a lot of gear rowing. Overall ratios of the stock Golf/Jetta 5 speed seem better for what I will be doing as well.

It is all up in the air until the first test drive. Then comes the junkyard searching of different case codes, and gear swapping if need be.

As far as the rack, the TT is the same as the R32, at 2.5 turns, versus 3 turns in the standard GTi. So it will make enough of a difference to take it from the TT part out.

As far as Turbo versus NA, the whole point was to build an Homage to my dream car. I never could find a rust free Ur-Q, or even Audi Coupe to use as a FWD version. So I am building something that will feel like its in the right spirit of things.

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DanielSL
Very true regarding the stress bar, and it will do even more of nothing once the cage goes in.

Why do you feel you need a cage in a rallycross car? Rallycross is slow speed, no risk of collision, and very very slim chance of rollover. All a cage will do is weight you down and make it more dangerous on the street.

Quote
DanielSL
After listening to John and others advice, I will be sourcing some 15" 's and using most likely 195/65 tires for the actual dirt. The 17" 's will be kept for tarmac use in the end. For now, they are good to keep the car rolling between my garage, my shop, the mechanics shop, and the welding shop, as needed over the summer.

I would look more into the 175-185 range of tire for your car.

Quote
DanielSL
I am actually leaning for staying with the 5 speed, and selling the 6 speed with the rest of the AWD components to recoup some of the expense of the TT purchase. The 6 speed with rear output is a lot heavier, and 1st gear in it is almost useless. For the sugar sand events we have here in Central Florida, it looks like I will spend most time in 1st and 2nd, with a lot of gear rowing. Overall ratios of the stock Golf/Jetta 5 speed seem better for what I will be doing as well.

Almost all rallycross takes place in 1st and 2nd gear no matter where you are.

Quote
DanielSL
As far as the rack, the TT is the same as the R32, at 2.5 turns, versus 3 turns in the standard GTi. So it will make enough of a difference to take it from the TT part out.

I think you should listen to Pete on this one. a 3 turn rack with a 2:1 quickener will be worlds better than a 2.5 turn rack for rallycross.

Quote
DanielSL
As far as Turbo versus NA, the whole point was to build an Homage to my dream car. I never could find a rust free Ur-Q, or even Audi Coupe to use as a FWD version. So I am building something that will feel like its in the right spirit of things.

That is about the most ill founded reason I have ever heard. Your golf has nothing to do with a group B Audi, any build decisions that are being made because of this belief should be seriously evaluated. Think about the speeds and gears you will be using in rallycross. How much torque do you need, when do you need that torque, do you have the grip to use more torque? Will a turbo engine just cause you to bog in the slow stuff and spin your wheels unproductively in the straighter bits? If you think about your decisions and base them off of technological reasoning and not fan boy dreams you will thank yourself down the road and maybe win some races.

Get a 5 spd from a 2.0L Golf or Jetta. 4.33:1 FD (IIRC).

As John points out over and over, it's about Torque multiplication.

Dave;

I already have two boxes out of the Golf/Jetta for just that reason. I also have the stock 5 speed out of the project GTi. Once the 6 speed code is secured, I will start looking at the different gear sets, ratios, and final drives, and have a primary and a spare box.

Main issue with the standard Golf/Jetta 5 speed, is a lot of people do not feel the 4:33/1 will work well with the torque curve of the Turbo 1.8.

Since my mechanic is a dealer for both Eurodyne and APR, we will be able to dyno tune our end tune to get the torque coming on strong as low as possible. I am hoping to be able to pull out of a lot of corners in 2nd, without having to change to 1st. This will allow me 2/3 shifts only around the entire course length. I should be able to get around 68 mph in 3rd, without encroaching redline.